Impeaching Trump: Make America Sane Again

[PaloAltoCougar]

How has he “played into the hands of sinister global forces that seek to undermine the advances democratic institutions have made since WWII?” Mueller found there was no collusion with Russia. ...

You left out “unwittingly” in quoting the language that followed. Yes, Mueller found no direct collusion between Trump and the Russians, but it was the incompetence of Trump’s foot soldiers, not fidelity to democratic principles, that prevented true collusion. Don Jr. and Roger Stone, among others, tried very hard to obtain assistance from Russian operatives but failed.

To the greater point, by sinister global forces I’m referring mainly to Putin and Xi, of course. Both are seeking to extend their influence, and decidedly undemocratic values, throughout the world. To that end, both welcome disorder, even chaos, in Western alliances and institutions. Trump has served that objective countless times by making stupid claims and undermining confidence in those institutions. For example,

--attacking judges and courts who have ruled against his attempts to impose improper immigration restrictions (not to mention those who rule against him in his many private lawsuits)

--pardoning those convicted of willingly defying court orders, (e.g., Sheriff Joe) and a soldier who committed war crimes, overruling multiple generals and other senior officers

--questioning the value of NATO (I’m okay with seeking greater contributions from some of its members, btw)

--referring to the media at the “enemy of the people,” and tweeting that America’s news media are its biggest enemy, not Russia, North Korea, etc.

--Heaping praise on autocrats (Xi, Putin, Un), while constantly attacking our allies' heads of state

--repeatedly branding his critics as traitors

--regarding criticism as an act of treason

--calling our elections rigged, including absurd claims about millions of unregistered voters (including hundreds of busloads crossing state lines), despite his own panel to investigate election fraud finding nada

--dictating a false statement on Air Force One to try to cover up Don Jr.’s attempt to obtain help from the Russians

--taking the word of Putin regarding Russian election interference over the clear conclusions of every U.S. intelligence agency

If I had time (not to mention, at this point, an audience that had remained awake), I could provide many more instances, but enough for now.

[frank ryan]

You left out “unwittingly” in quoting the language that followed. Yes, Mueller found no direct collusion between Trump and the Russians, but it was the incompetence of Trump’s foot soldiers, not fidelity to democratic principles, that prevented true collusion. Don Jr. and Roger Stone, among others, tried very hard to obtain assistance from Russian operatives but failed.

To the greater point, by sinister global forces I’m referring mainly to Putin and Xi, of course. Both are seeking to extend their influence, and decidedly undemocratic values, throughout the world. To that end, both welcome disorder, even chaos, in Western alliances and institutions. Trump has served that objective countless times by making stupid claims and undermining confidence in those institutions. For example,

--attacking judges and courts who have ruled against his attempts to impose improper immigration restrictions (not to mention those who rule against him in his many private lawsuits)

--pardoning those convicted of willingly defying court orders, (e.g., Sheriff Joe) and a soldier who committed war crimes, overruling multiple generals and other senior officers

--questioning the value of NATO (I’m okay with seeking greater contributions from some of its members, btw)

--referring to the media at the “enemy of the people,” and tweeting that America’s news media are its biggest enemy, not Russia, North Korea, etc.

--Heaping praise on autocrats (Xi, Putin, Un), while constantly attacking our allies' heads of state

--repeatedly branding his critics as traitors

--regarding criticism as an act of treason

--calling our elections rigged, including absurd claims about millions of unregistered voters (including hundreds of busloads crossing state lines), despite his own panel to investigate election fraud finding nada

--dictating a false statement on Air Force One to try to cover up Don Jr.’s attempt to obtain help from the Russians

--taking the word of Putin regarding Russian election interference over the clear conclusions of every U.S. intelligence agency

If I had time (not to mention, at this point, an audience that had remained awake), I could provide many more instances, but enough for now.

To clarify, he didn't find enough evidence to merit charges for conspiracy, but hedidn't conclude there was no evidence. We have Wikileaks communicating with Roger Stone for example. Mueller's report also noted how difficult it was to interview several Trump officials because they wouldn't make themselves available, and electronic evidence seemed to be destroyed.

[PaloAltoCougar]

I agree that Trump is more a symptom and less a cause of the erosion of democratic values. Moreover, I think the phenomenon sometimes called Trump derangement syndrome is MORE of a danger to our system than he is. Like parents who give attention rather than ignore a spoiled, petulant child and so make the problem much worse, we have been playing into his tantrums and incivility for the last three years. The problem is that we, as an electorate, have now learned new behaviors. Everything is an EXISTENTIAL threat. Pelosi even claimed the very existence of civilization would be threatened if Trump is re-elected! Can you imagine if Trump claimed the obverse, that unless he is reelected civilization was at risk?? The idiocy of both claims seems self-evident, and yet there she was, saying just such a stupid thing 'because Trump.' Much better for both sides of the aisle if everyone except Trump had acted like adults and let him hold his breath and pound the table like a child.

And here is something I have wondered about: who are these 'real statesmen' to whom you refer? Obama, who pays off the Iranians in cash and offers the Russians more flexibility, sotto voce, once he is elected? I think perhaps the decay in our institutions has been happening at a fundamental level for a long time and the 'real statesmen' have slapped on a new coat of paint every few years and we think it looks great and so we ignore the problems hidden from view. Trump comes in and by the force of his so-unpleasant personality and purely self-interested behavior exposes all of these problems and divisions for what they are. He is merely a megaphone for the anti-democratic whispers and hisses that have arisen over the last generation or two.

Putin or Xi might be gleefully waiting to fill the void created by a diminished US presence in world affairs. But this is a separate issue and a non-trumpian problem. The fact is that we have been spending far too much in money and people in asserting our influence for a long time. We MUST retrench. The question is where and how much. Surely Trump will make these choices in a non-strategic and self-interested way, but that is a reason to vote for someone else, not a reason to impeach him.

There’s a lot to chew on here, and I agree with some of it, but just a few points for now, as my audience has long departed…. First, Pelosi’s statement was absurdly over-the-top, but your counter, “Can you imagine if Trump claimed the obverse, that unless he is reelected civilization was at risk??,” hardly stretches the imagination. Remember Trump, in full Mussoliniesque swagger at the convention, after reciting the many perils facing us, assured us that “I, alone, can fix it!” Apparently without him, the end would indeed be upon us.

And yes, past presidents have committed a multitude of unstatesmanlike screw-ups. Obama had many errors in foreign policy (e.g., his line in the Syrian sand). You can go back to John Adams and the Alien and Sedition Acts for examples of very unstatesmanlike behavior. But overall, until Trump, pretty much every President respected the institutions--even Nixon accepted the Supreme Court decision that led to his resignation and in leaving office behaved with some degree of honor and respect for the institutions that essentially removed him. Does anyone think Trump would be capable of such a response?

And as for retrenchment, I’m inclined to disagree. We have a military presence in many dozens (I think >70) countries. It has cost us vast amounts of blood and money, but our global presence in the second half of the 20th Century allowed democracy and free enterprise to generate vastly more freedom and wealth than at any other time in history. We’ve also made a boatload of stupid decisions, strategic and tactical, in utilizing that presence. So while we should constantly reassess our role, simply cutting back significantly seems like a very bad idea, since it’s a certainty those sinister forces will be happy to fill the void, with a concomitant loss of freedom and wealth.

PAC must think that socialism is entirely consonant with advances in democratic institutions that have been made since WWII.

I assume your tongue is planted firmly in your cheek, since I know you're not stupid enough to believe that any rip on Trump is an implicit vote for socialism. My views on this evening's topic of discussion have been heavily shaped by socialist (by your lights, apparently) writers such as Jonah Goldberg (Suicide of the West), Yuval Levin (Fractured Republic), George Will (A Conservative Sensibility) and Larry Diamond (Ill Winds--Saving Democracy from Russian Rage, Chinese Ambition, and American Complacency).

That said, I confess to still having respect for Mayor Pete, who despite his sometimes lefty leanings, seems to be honorable, very intelligent, and seemingly capable of statesmanship. So perhaps I'll start re-reading Das Kapital.

To clarify, he didn't find enough evidence to merit charges for conspiracy, but hedidn't conclude there was no evidence. We have Wikileaks communicating with Roger Stone for example. Mueller's report also noted how difficult it was to interview several Trump officials because they wouldn't make themselves available, and electronic evidence seemed to be destroyed.

Agreed.

[SeattleUte]

I'd vote for Mayor Pete in the general election.

[LVAllen]

Do you think it's OK that the FBI spied on the Trump campaign as ordered by the Obama admin? Those are facts.

Hell yes.

The FBI was concerned that the campaign had been compromised by a foreign opponent. You're damn tootin' I'm okay with them investigating.

If you don't want to be suspected of colluding with Russians, maybe don't jump at the chance to collude with Russisns.

[Uncle Ted]

I'd vote for Mayor Pete in the general election.

Yeah, too bad Mayor Pete is polling at 0% among blacks... and that most likely will not change any time soon:

[...]
The scrutiny ratcheted up in June, when a white South Bend police officer shot and killed a black burglary suspect armed with a knife, an incident that was not captured on the officer’s body or vehicle cameras. The incident flared racial tensions in the city, brought renewed attention to the mayor’s shaky relationship with some factions of South Bend’s black community and forced Buttigieg off the campaign trail for a week as he weathered the fallout.

Since then, the mayor has returned campaign contributions tied to an attorney involved in the Laquan McDonald police shooting scandal, has had to answer for 2011 comments he made about black students lacking role models and faced scrutiny for comparing the struggles for equality of LGBTQ people to those of African Americans.

Beyond that, his campaign has been criticized for misrepresenting the amount of support from black leaders for his Frederick Douglass plan, and the mayor was called out during the last debate for his team’s use of a stock photo of a Kenyan woman to illustrate the platform, which aims to battle inequities for African Americans.
[...]

https://www.chicagotribune.com/politics/elections/ct-pete-buttigieg-black-voters-2020-south-carolina-20191205-fizb7lf2fjgn7fvmuvdkwuxsvu-story.html

Maybe Mayor Pete can announce he will make Kamala Harris his running mate if he wins the primary? Of course, that might hurt his campaign rather than help it.

The only reasonable Dem candidates are Tulsi Gabbard and Bloomberg. Frank hates Tulsi but maybe he will warm up to Little Mike. Sleepy Joe just has too much baggage. Bloomberg is a better pick for trying to defeat another old, white, billionaire.

[Uncle Ted]

To clarify, he didn't find enough evidence to merit charges for conspiracy, but hedidn't conclude there was no evidence. We have Wikileaks communicating with Roger Stone for example. Mueller's report also noted how difficult it was to interview several Trump officials because they wouldn't make themselves available, and electronic evidence seemed to be destroyed.

OMG, did he use BleachBit on his hard drives and smash his 13 blackberries and 5 iPads with a hammer? That SoB! Blackberries are one thing but no one should take a hammer to an apple device.

[Uncle Ted]

You left out “unwittingly” in quoting the language that followed. Yes, Mueller found no direct collusion between Trump and the Russians, but it was the incompetence of Trump’s foot soldiers, not fidelity to democratic principles, that prevented true collusion. Don Jr. and Roger Stone, among others, tried very hard to obtain assistance from Russian operatives but failed.

To the greater point, by sinister global forces I’m referring mainly to Putin and Xi, of course. Both are seeking to extend their influence, and decidedly undemocratic values, throughout the world. To that end, both welcome disorder, even chaos, in Western alliances and institutions. Trump has served that objective countless times by making stupid claims and undermining confidence in those institutions. For example,

--attacking judges and courts who have ruled against his attempts to impose improper immigration restrictions (not to mention those who rule against him in his many private lawsuits)

--pardoning those convicted of willingly defying court orders, (e.g., Sheriff Joe) and a soldier who committed war crimes, overruling multiple generals and other senior officers

--questioning the value of NATO (I’m okay with seeking greater contributions from some of its members, btw)

--referring to the media at the “enemy of the people,” and tweeting that America’s news media are its biggest enemy, not Russia, North Korea, etc.

--Heaping praise on autocrats (Xi, Putin, Un), while constantly attacking our allies' heads of state

--repeatedly branding his critics as traitors

--regarding criticism as an act of treason

--calling our elections rigged, including absurd claims about millions of unregistered voters (including hundreds of busloads crossing state lines), despite his own panel to investigate election fraud finding nada

--dictating a false statement on Air Force One to try to cover up Don Jr.’s attempt to obtain help from the Russians

--taking the word of Putin regarding Russian election interference over the clear conclusions of every U.S. intelligence agency

If I had time (not to mention, at this point, an audience that had remained awake), I could provide many more instances, but enough for now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah... but the dumb shit that Drumpf posts on his twitter feed is great entertainment! The best part is watching liberals' heads explode. I just saw this one this morning:

"Are you people insane??"



And, yes, and all 60+ million of them could be insane. I blame the move to Obamacare and rise in healthcare costs including prescription drug prices. These poor folks now can't afford the help they need. Thanks Obama!

[beefytee]

The only reasonable Dem candidates are Tulsi Gabbard and Bloomberg. Frank hates Tulsi but maybe he will warm up to Little Mike. Sleepy Joe just has too much baggage. Bloomberg is a better pick for trying to defeat another old, white, billionaire.

How is Bloomberg polling among blacks? I haven't followed the poll much, but I'm guessing there isn't much appeal there.

[beefytee]

There’s a lot to chew on here, and I agree with some of it, but just a few points for now, as my audience has long departed….

Nope. Please keep sharing. Love your contribution.

[Uncle Ted]

How is Bloomberg polling among blacks? I haven't followed the poll much, but I'm guessing there isn't much appeal there.

Your guess would be wrong. Looks like he is rising fast in the polls too... about as fast as Biden is sinking:

A new national poll conducted by Quinnipiac University found Mr. Bloomberg in fifth place with 5% of support among Democrats after two weeks in the race. It also showed him in fourth place among black voters.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/bloomberg-woos-minority-voters-in-2020-bid-11576071137

Maybe he will pick Gabbard as his running mate. Frank will just have to hold his nose, overlook the fact he is voting for an old white billionaire, and vote for them. Or he could join me in voting for the libertarian.

[beefytee]

Your guess would be wrong. Looks like he is rising fast in the polls too... about as fast as Biden is sinking:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/bloomberg-woos-minority-voters-in-2020-bid-11576071137

Maybe he will pick Gabbard as his running mate. Frank will just have to hold his nose, overlook the fact he is voting for an old white billionaire, and vote for them. Or he could join me in voting for the libertarian.

I could vote for Bloomberg/Gabbard. I may vote libertarian as well, depends on how crazy the candidate is.

[Uncle Ted]

I could vote for Bloomberg/Gabbard. I may vote libertarian as well, depends on how crazy the candidate is.

To be honest I might could vote for a Bloomberg/Gabbard ticket as well. I bet that might tip the scale for SpaceGhost too.

[Moliere]

OMG, did he use BleachBit on his hard drives and smash his 13 blackberries and 5 iPads with a hammer? That SoB! Blackberries are one thing but no one should take a hammer to an apple device.

Funny that destroying electronic evidence is now an impeachable crime while with Hillary it was offensive to even think she did something wrong.

[frank ryan]

What happened to everyone saying Biden would be an agreeable candidate? It won’t RT.com’s favourite girl, Tulsi. So you won’t have that option.

If someone Bloomberg wins, he would dampen progressive enthusiasm, so he wouldn’t compound that by licking Gabbard. Of course I’d vote for that ticket over Trump. He’s a threat to our republic. Watch ISIS have some sort of revival.