High speed trains

[Mormon Red Death]

For the life of me I can't understand why this country has such a shitty rail system.

for example, the Midwest Rail Initiative is an ok start and Proposition 1A looks great although it 12 years out from being a real source.

I was reading in popular mechanics about the new air train in New York city about building rails on the medians of the freeways.

Road congestion gets worse every year, yet thousands of miles of highway—the medians, to be precise—go unused. According to bridge engineer Linda Figg, a gap just 6 feet across can support an elevated roadway three lanes wide. Figg’s Lee Roy Selmon Crosstown Expressway added three reversible lanes to a 15-mile stretch of median between Brandon, Fla., and downtown Tampa, cutting travel time from 45 minutes to as little as 20. Such bridges can also carry light rail—Figg’s AirTrain JFK project carries travelers above New York City’s Van Wyck Expressway to Kennedy Airport. The projects require little new grading and no seizures of property. “Look at data networks, the way they’ve been optimized,” Figg says. “They have higher speeds, they’re more efficient, but we’re using the same networks. This is the same—we’re optimizing our corridors by building at multiple levels.”

[il Padrino Ute]

It's run by the government. Why would it not be shitty?

[LiveCoug]

I love the European train system. I'd love to hop on a train at a Lehi station and high speed it to California (or Denver, or Phoenix, or Chicago, or Seattle, etc.). But alas, we love our cars too much for such a thing.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I love the European train system. I'd love to hop on a train at a Lehi station and high speed it to California (or Denver, or Phoenix, or Chicago, or Seattle, etc.). But alas, we love our cars too much for such a thing.

To me, it is more complicated than that. Even the subsidies that Am-trak are granted do not make it cost efficient for a group larger than 5 to travel by train vs. car, especially when you count it rental car fees at the destination. If there was more ridership, prices would go down, but with the current cost ridership will remain stagnant.

I love my car, but if it was cheaper to take the train to some of our family destinations, I would be all over it.

[Tim]

It's run by the government. Why would it not be shitty?

That argument won't work this time. The issue is largely with infrastructure, not the actual rolling stock and operation. The infrastructure is where we have issues. Most of the rail lines are *not* owned by the government.

Regardless, government-owned rail systems are fantastic all around the world.

[Surfah]

To me, it is more complicated than that. Even the subsidies that Am-trak are granted do not make it cost efficient for a group larger than 5 to travel by train vs. car, especially when you count it rental car fees at the destination. If there was more ridership, prices would go down, but with the current cost ridership will remain stagnant.

I love my car, but if it was cheaper to take the train to some of our family destinations, I would be all over it.

There's the rub. Amtrak has never produced a profit if my memory serves me correctly. It's a horrible system. It's hardly cost-effective. I regularly commute from Fredericksburg, VA to Penn Station-NYC. It's always late. It's not even cost effective. To travel that same distance may cost me $30 in gas and 5-6 hours. A one way coach ticket is typically $120, sometimes more and takes the same amount of time. I usually upgrade to business for an additional $35 because the coach class is like riding the Greyhound.

[Surfah]

That argument won't work this time. The issue is largely with infrastructure, not the actual rolling stock and operation. The infrastructure is where we have issues. Most of the rail lines are *not* owned by the government.

Regardless, government-owned rail systems are fantastic all around the world.

The government owns all the preferred stock. The rail owners own common stock. They were offered a buyout awhile back and refused. Don't know why as that stock has to be worthless.

[Jarid in Cedar]

There's the rub. Amtrak has never produced a profit if my memory serves me correctly. It's a horrible system. It's hardly cost-effective. I regularly commute from Fredericksburg, VA to Penn Station-NYC. It's always late. It's not even cost effective. To travel that same distance may cost me $30 in gas and 5-6 hours. A one way coach ticket is typically $120, sometimes more and takes the same amount of time. I usually upgrade to business for an additional $35 because the coach class is like riding the Greyhound.

I don't think it has turned a "profit", even when heavily subsidised.

[Surfah]

I don't think it has turned a "profit", even when heavily subsidised.

I seriously hate the train. It's crowded. I always feel like Forrest Gump on the bus on the first day of school. I'm with Il Paddy on this one. Nationalization at its worst.

[il Padrino Ute]

That argument won't work this time. The issue is largely with infrastructure, not the actual rolling stock and operation. The infrastructure is where we have issues. Most of the rail lines are *not* owned by the government.

Regardless, government-owned rail systems are fantastic all around the world.

Until the government actually proves itself competent at something like this, the argument will work. Ever used AmTrack?

How high are the taxes in those countries where state-owned rail is fantastic?

[Jarid in Cedar]

Until the government actually proves itself competent at something like this, the argument will work. Ever used AmTrack?

How high are the taxes in those countries where state-owned rail is fantastic?

The trouble is that the government is not allowed to run anything with common business principles. They are always hijacked by special interests, lobby, and corruption. This is why Medicare is in the state that it is in.

[il Padrino Ute]

The trouble is that the government is not allowed to run anything with common business principles. They are always hijacked by special interests, lobby, and corruption. This is why Medicare is in the state that it is in.

I agree, which is exactly why I asked why anything the government runs wouldn't be shitty. Until those in DC have the guts to tell all special interest groups to take a hike and start putting their constituents before their own political careers, nothing will change.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I agree, which is exactly why I asked why anything the government runs wouldn't be shitty. Until those in DC have the guts to tell all special interest groups to take a hike and start putting their constituents before their own political careers, nothing will change.

Or their own pocket books. How many of these guys end up with cherry jobs when they finish their time. We had a guy here in Cedar City that was chair of the development board for the city. He helped negotiate a large(at the time) redevelopment project on main street. 3 months after he left city government, he was working as the head contractor for the company that received the bid to build the project I can't make any comment as to whether that company was the best bid or not, but the appearance was just plain horrid.

[il Padrino Ute]

Or their own pocket books. How many of these guys end up with cherry jobs when they finish their time. We had a guy here in Cedar City that was chair of the development board for the city. He helped negotiate a large(at the time) redevelopment project on main street. 3 months after he left city government, he was working as the head contractor for the company that received the bid to build the project I can't make any comment as to whether that company was the best bid or not, but the appearance was just plain horrid.

Excellent point.

I'm guessing the Founding Fathers are continuously spinning in their graves.

[Tim]

Until the government actually proves itself competent at something like this, the argument will work. Ever used AmTrack?

How high are the taxes in those countries where state-owned rail is fantastic?

They're at about the same level as our taxes + the amounts we pay for things they get paid for by taxes.

Amtrak owns the rolling stock and the schedules, but until the infrastructure (which is owned by the old railroad companies still) gets improved, there's no way for Amtrak to improve the quality of their equipment. The tracks and switching systems do NOT belong to Amtrak, and they're the issue here, not the Amtrak service. Amtrak could improve speed and service if they had better infrastructure to work with.