President Trump: Making America Great Again...

[falafel]

When looking at what the politicians have done, You have a former CIA operative who is known for destabilizing countries (Color Revolutions) and other former military personnel in a current political position telling our military to deem what is “illegal orders” and not obey them.

Hey Brock. I don't agree with a lot of these positions, but I hope you don't view that as an attack. I am wondering if we agree on a set of facts so that we can discuss this issue on common ground.

My first questions is why you think the dems' ad was telling our military personnel to "deem what is 'illegal orders' and not obey them". I am not certain I understand your position. Are you saying that the dems are wrong because they've asked soldiers to interpret whether an order is illegal before following it? Is it the suggestion that a soldier might question an order as whether it is legal or not the issue? I can see how even the suggestion that an order might not be legitimate could be problematic. On the other hand, if a soldier never considers the legality of an order, are we giving the game away?

First, thank you for now putting our country in the same atmosphere of 3rd world countries where politicians have lobbied to their military branch to openly defy a sitting President. Many coups and actions by military has lead to the removal of a President. What they did was extremely dangerous and arrogant.

I agree, this is not territory we wanted to be in and its scary. I'm not sure how you arrived at the idea that the message was to "defy" a sitting President. On its face, the message was that a soldier does not need to obey an illegal order. On a scandal meter, it rates next to "don't speed because its against the law". In my opinion, suggesting that it the ad is dangerous admits that there is a problem--why would there be an issue if everyone knew the President would NEVER issue an illegal order?

Second, it’s not your fucking job!! We have commanders, generals, Captain, etc. and the chain of command that make decisions on what is legal or illegal and ensure they do not. Soo. STFU..

My thought is that they likely think that it IS their job, as much as they have sworn an oath to defend the Constitution. I, for one, am happy that our elected politicians are still willing to speak out, at risk to their personal liberty and safety, on issues they believe effect the people they serve. If they don't speak up, how can they call themselves our leaders? That's what we have elected them to be, but it seems we keep cutting them down for trying to speak their minds.

Third. These statements can cause internal strife in the military that was unnecessary. You get some subtle solider who will take liberties and disobey orders and now face punishable action thinking they are doing the right thing. Yet, they do not care about the ramifications as they are not culpable. It’s just words.

Agreed. A single soldier can do so much damage in our current age and climate. I think soldiers are at risk of what you identify from both sides of the aisle. There's the risk that a soldier from the left or the right starts to think of their fellow citizens as the enemy. Start to their that their fellow soldiers are the enemy. I hope you agree that any kind of effort to convert the military into a partisan organization is despicable.

[falafel]

Show me an unlawful order.

I assume you don't have a problem with signs stating the speed limit.

[LVAllen]

Show me an unlawful order.

Clearly you think there's an unlawful order, or at least one that is capable of being interpreted as an unlawful order. Otherwise, why the complaining about a bunch of folks saying "You can refuse illegal orders"?

So what order do you think military or intelligence members might be in danger of interpreting as illegal?

[dabrockster]

Clearly you think there's an unlawful order, or at least one that is capable of being interpreted as an unlawful order. Otherwise, why the complaining about a bunch of folks saying "You can refuse illegal orders"?

So what order do you think military or intelligence members might be in danger of interpreting as illegal?

LOL. So. You cannot come up with a single order that is unlawful. Gotcha..

Clearly you think there is an unlawful order and why you support these dems. Otherwise, why support a bunch of folks saying "You can refuse illegal orders"?

[Northwestcoug]

Show me an unlawful order.

If denying a bedrock constitutional principle like due process by killing suspected drug runners isn’t illegal, it sure as hell ought to be.

We are in a bad place that government-sponsored extrajudicial killing of suspected criminals is not considered the biggest scandal of Trump’s presidency.

[LVAllen]

LOL. So. You cannot come up with a single order that is unlawful. Gotcha..

Clearly you think there is an unlawful order and why you support these dems. Otherwise, why support a bunch of folks saying "You can refuse illegal orders"?

Because it's an accurate statement of the law? Doesn't matter what branch of the military you serve in, UCMJ 92 applies to lawful general orders or regulations. If it ain't lawful, it must be refused. Are you concerned that someone who is taught that murdering civilians violates his/her oath might question whether the order to drop bombs on civilians who pose no threat to the US' territory, her civilians, or her military violates their oath?

This isn't the gotcha you seem to think it is. Again, if you don't think there's a chance that some soldier somewhere will interpret an order as illegal, why all the whinging? So what order do you think is possible that someone would risk imprisonment rather than carry out?

[Bo Diddley]

The Democrats pointing out the obvious that the military should not obey unlawful orders is not helpful. You want to help? Go get to work in building a bipartisan coalition to reign in the current administration if you think they are out of control.

Admiral Alvin Holsey’s retirement should give you pause, but it’s a grey area. It’s a grey area because Trump is using the AUMF from 2001. It’s not the military’s job to deliberate whether the cited AUMF fits.

So when do military personnel not follow orders? When it’s black and white. Don’t expect them to wade into grey areas like this.

My personal opinion? I don’t think these strikes are justified, but Trump's justification, flimsy as I see it, is still a justification until one of the other two branches check him. If I were deployed in support of Operation Southern Spear, I would feel obligated to follow the orders from my chain of command.

[happyone]

...

So when do military personnel not follow orders? When it’s black and white. Don’t expect them to wade into grey areas like this.

My personal opinion? I don’t think these strikes are justified, but Trump's justification, flimsy as I see it, is still a justification until one of the other two branches check him. If I were deployed in support of Operation Southern Spear, I would feel obligated to follow the orders from my chain of command.

This!!!

Just a data point - when my brother was a Company CO in Alaska, he had one of his SSGTs disobey a direct order. After discussing the refusal with the individual and making sure he new what he was doing. The soldier had 17 yrs in, so yes he did. Brother said he was facing a General Court Martial, Bad Conduct Discharge, reduction in Rank to Pvt E-1 and a term of confinement. Brother did everything he could to find a loop hole and eventually did. This was at Ft. Wainwright in Alaska and the SSGT had a cold weather profile - he shouldn't have been there. Brother was able to get him a medical discharge - but the soldier lost his retirement.

[USUC]

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[Bo Diddley]

This!!!

Just a data point - when my brother was a Company CO in Alaska, he had one of his SSGTs disobey a direct order. After discussing the refusal with the individual and making sure he new what he was doing. The soldier had 17 yrs in, so yes he did. Brother said he was facing a General Court Martial, Bad Conduct Discharge, reduction in Rank to Pvt E-1 and a term of confinement. Brother did everything he could to find a loop hole and eventually did. This was at Ft. Wainwright in Alaska and the SSGT had a cold weather profile - he shouldn't have been there. Brother was able to get him a medical discharge - but the soldier lost his retirement.

A high price to pay for a moral stand. We lost a bunch during COVID over the shot.

They have a new blended retirement for the newer Soldiers where you don't lose everything if you get out before 20. Less of a pension benefit and something like matching funds in the TSP.

[myboynoah]

No worries. The Department of War is on top of this.

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[Northwestcoug]

Hegseth owes Trump his elevated status, so it's fitting he's using slurs and those unnecessary quotes just like Trump does:

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[falafel]

LOL. So. You cannot come up with a single order that is unlawful. Gotcha..

Clearly you think there is an unlawful order and why you support these dems. Otherwise, why support a bunch of folks saying "You can refuse illegal orders"?

Why NOT support a bunch of folks stating such a benign thing? This is the equivalent of saying "follow the law" or "don't break the law".

[falafel]

Hegseth owes Trump his elevated status, so it's fitting he's using slurs and those unnecessary quotes just like Trump does:

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I am glad Secretary Hegseth is worried about "conduct brings discredit upon the armed forces" and will be looking into it. He doesn't have far to go to get started:

Pete Hegseth, President Trump's pick for defense secretary, is facing new allegations of alcohol abuse and misconduct as the Senate prepares to vote on his confirmation.

https://www.npr.org/2025/01/22/nx-s1...and-misconduct

[dabrockster]

Why NOT support a bunch of folks stating such a benign thing? This is the equivalent of saying "follow the law" or "don't break the law".

Why Support it? Really? Sorry, but I find it irresponsible and is a tactic used in 3rd world countries to usurp a President. On a global scale, the actions of both parties are equivalent to a petulant brat who does not get his way. The infighting is not cooling but increasing. Truthfully, these bully-bubba and color revolution tactics only solidify everyone in their opinion on or against President Trump.

And to lessen what they did to a speed limit sign seems rather disingenuous..

Name another time in American history where sitting congressman has made such a statement. Only one I can think of is right before the south pursued succession.

So yeah. I find it reprehensible to engaging in political theater with our soldiers (Who should be above this). What they have done is placed us no different Argentina, Chile or other countries that have instigated such actions.