President Trump: Making America Great Again...

[frank ryan]

Your "get back to me when" comment read (to me) at lot like "I don't give a shit about the violence from my side, the other side is worse".

And - integrated or not (honestly, I don't care to research any connections), the left is using Antifa for their own purposes.

It's clear you haven't done research. I'm not going to bother making a lengthy post discussing what antifa is and isn't. I think I'm done dialoguing with you for a minute.

[old_gregg]

Your "get back to me when" comment read (to me) at lot like "I don't give a shit about the violence from my side, the other side is worse".

And - integrated or not (honestly, I don't care to research any connections), the left is using Antifa for their own purposes.

those antifa assholes in the monolithic left!

[frank ryan]

Some unrelated links. New Trump-Russia emails could establish a 'devastating' legal entanglement for Paul Manafort:Newly reported emails show a campaign foreign-policy adviser's efforts to set up a meeting between Donald Trump, then a candidate, and Russian President Vladimir Putin.

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump...7-8/?r=US&IR=T

Trump Returns to Blaming ‘Both Sides’ for Deadly Violence in Virginia.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ists-in-attack

Trump defends white supremacist rally, says it was really about protecting ‘very important’ statue

https://thinkprogress.org/trump-defe...-67f5a299bfb7/

That really softens Trump's condemnation of the racists. A peaceful counter protestor has killed. That is not because of "both sides." It's also unfortunate that he legitimizing the unite the right rally. It was planned by avowed racists and that's who attended, not a bunch of confederate history buffs.

[Northwestcoug]

My, my. I guess Trump is tired playing presidential. He truly is alt-right. He's going out in a blaze of glory. He is who he is.

[Jeff Lebowski]

This is interesting:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...al-lee/529038/

The Robert E. Lee of myth doesn't match history.

[frank ryan]

My, my. I guess Trump is tired playing presidential. He truly is alt-right. He's going out in a blaze of glory. He is who he is.

Shaka called me hyperbolic and conspiratorial for pointing out that Trump resists criticizing fascists, but Trump definitely appears to have embraced the altright. Let's not forget Trump's dad was arrested for participating in a violent white supremacist rally.

[creekster]

I listened to the press conference live while I was driving back from a meeting. My overall impression is that the media is so preconditioned to see their image of trump they don't listen to what he is trying to say. I also think that Trump enjoys the frenzy, the attention, and the excitement. The press conference was chaotic and silly. Some of the questions asked were childish and many of his answers were obtuse, misleading or just dumb. He could have avoided much of the controversy that is already being discussed in the press by speaking carefully and efficiently. Of course, if he did speak that way it would be the first time. Bottom line, for me, si that he seemed to be trying to say that although the neo-nazis were bad people, there were also bad/violent people that attacked them. IOW, putting aside the merits of the ideas that motivate them, all people who engage in violence are bad and wrong. I don't have too much of a problem with that, but the media took him to be saying that the right and left were equivalent and this they could not abide. As a result, all chaos broke out. Trump, to his great discredit, seemed to enjoy the banter and never made the salient point he should have made. That said, I think much of the criticism I heard on MSNBC following the presser was over the top and was derived as much from their own preconceived notions as it was from what he actually said. Just MO.

[frank ryan]

I listened to the press conference live while I was driving back from a meeting. My overall impression is that the media is so preconditioned to see their image of trump they don't listen to what he is trying to say. I also think that Trump enjoys the frenzy, the attention, and the excitement. The press conference was chaotic and silly. Some of the questions asked were childish and many of his answers were obtuse, misleading or just dumb. He could have avoided much of the controversy that is already being discussed in the press by speaking carefully and efficiently. Of course, if he did speak that way it would be the first time. Bottom line, for me, si that he seemed to be trying to say that although the neo-nazis were bad people, there were also bad/violent people that attacked them. IOW, putting aside the merits of the ideas that motivate them, all people who engage in violence are bad and wrong. I don't have too much of a problem with that, but the media took him to be saying that the right and left were equivalent and this they could not abide. As a result, all chaos broke out. Trump, to his great discredit, seemed to enjoy the banter and never made the salient point he should have made. That said, I think much of the criticism I heard on MSNBC following the presser was over the top and was derived as much from their own preconceived notions as it was from what he actually said. Just MO.

In Charlottesville the left and right were not equally to blame. People at the rally weren't about preserving Southern heritage. It was a hate rally and a show of force.

[creekster]

This is interesting:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...al-lee/529038/

The Robert E. Lee of myth doesn't match history.

Thats a good read and sounds about right, although I think Lee was a better military officer than the author gives him credit for. His view on race, however, was every bit as bad as it could be.

[Topper]

In Charlottesville the left and right were not equally to blame. People at the rally weren't about preserving Southern heritage. It was a hate rally and a show of force.

Creekster didn't say that.

Each deserves some measure of blame, naturally the Nazis deserve the lion share, but those who attacked them deserve some measure. And the police deserve some blame for not preventing it. Nobody is saying anything but that the Nazis are reprehensible and useless.

[creekster]

In Charlottesville the left and right were not equally to blame. People at the rally weren't about preserving Southern heritage. It was a hate rally and a show of force.

See, thats what I am talking about. You are infusing the merits of the idea into the action. This is exactly why I hate the notion of hate crimes. someone's ideas might be repugnant, but they have every right to hold them and espouse them. The problem arises when they act improperly. I took Trump to be saying that anyone who acted violently was wrong, regardless of whether they were motivated by a good idea or not. ALso, the notion of equivalence is something the media talked about a lot but I am not sure Trump really said, at least not clearly.

If you contend, accurately, that NO ONE opposing the nazis acted violently, then I would agree that there is no blame to be given them.

[frank ryan]

I appreciate this statement from the church. Sounds like it will upset purposefulwife

It has been called to our attention that there are some among the various pro-white and white supremacy communities who assert that the Church is neutral toward or in support of their views. Nothing could be further from the truth. In the New Testament, Jesus said: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” (Matthew 22:37–39). The Book of Mormon teaches “all are alike unto God” (2 Nephi 26:33).
White supremacist attitudes are morally wrong and sinful, and we condemn them. Church members who promote or pursue a “white culture” or white supremacy agenda are not in harmony with the teachings of the Church.

[Topper]

Thats a good read and sounds about right, although I think Lee was a better military officer than the author gives him credit for. His view on race, however, was every bit as bad as it could be.

And his views were bad even in his time.

The US was one of the last to abolish slavery.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-s...61464920070322

1792 - Denmark bans import of slaves to its West Indies colonies, although the law only took effect from 1803.

1807 - Britain passes Abolition of the Slave Trade Act, outlawing British Atlantic slave trade.

- United States passes legislation banning the slave trade, effective from start of 1808.

1811 - Spain abolishes slavery, including in its colonies, though Cuba rejects ban and continues to deal in slaves.

1813 - Sweden bans slave trading

1814 - Netherlands bans slave trading

1817 - France bans slave trading, but ban not effective until 1826

1833 - Britain passes Abolition of Slavery Act, ordering gradual abolition of slavery in all British colonies. Plantation owners in the West Indies receive 20 million pounds in compensation

- Great Britain and Spain sign a treaty prohibiting the slave trade

1819 - Portugal abolishes slave trade north of the equator

- Britain places a naval squadron off the West African coast to enforce the ban on slave trading

1823 - Britain's Anti-Slavery Society formed. Members include William Wilberforce

1846 - Danish governor proclaims emancipation of slaves in Danish West Indies, abolishing slavery

1848 - France abolishes slavery

1851 - Brazil abolishes slave trading

1858 - Portugal abolishes slavery in its colonies, although all slaves are subject to a 20-year apprenticeship

1861 - Netherlands abolishes slavery in Dutch Caribbean colonies

1862 - U.S. President Abraham Lincoln proclaims emancipation of slaves with effect from January 1, 1863; 13th Amendment of U.S. Constitution follows in 1865 banning slavery

1886 - Slavery is abolished in Cuba

1888 - Brazil abolishes slavery

1926 - League of Nations adopts Slavery Convention abolishing slavery

As an interesting aside, Britain, when it finally abolished slavery in 1833-34 compensated its slave owners what would be about 16 Billion Dollars in today's dollars and those fortunes were used to found many of Britain's important institutions.

See,http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b063db18

By the way, abolition of slave trade meant to make it illegal to transport slaves on ships from the nation.

[frank ryan]

See, thats what I am talking about. You are infusing the merits of the idea into the action. This is exactly why I hate the notion of hate crimes. someone's ideas might be repugnant, but they have every right to hold them and espouse them. The problem arises when they act improperly. I took Trump to be saying that anyone who acted violently was wrong, regardless of whether they were motivated by a good idea or not. ALso, the notion of equivalence is something the media talked about a lot but I am not sure Trump really said, at least not clearly.

If you contend, accurately, that NO ONE opposing the nazis acted violently, then I would agree that there is no blame to be given them.

It took days of serious pressure to get Trump to specifically condemn Neo-Nazis and the KKK. He turns around does basically does the same thing he did that resulted in being criticized. Absolutely, people have a right to express wretched opinions, and people have a right to counter-protest them. It should be done peacefully by all parties. Over the weekend a fascist man killed someone and injured dozens others. It's hard for me to give Trump the benefit of the doubt on these things. He struggled mightily to criticize David Duke. Pretending he didn't know he was and that his headset wasn't working. Trump has white nationalists in his cabinet.

I was heartened by the unqualified criticism many GOP leaders offered about the event. That makes me hopeful.

[creekster]

It took days of serious pressure to get Trump to specifically condemn Neo-Nazis and the KKK. He turns around does basically does the same thing he did that resulted in being criticized. Absolutely, people have a right to express wretched opinions, and people have a right to counter-protest them. It should be done peacefully by all parties. Over the weekend a fascist man killed someone and injured dozens others. It's hard for me to give Trump the benefit of the doubt on these things. He struggled mightily to criticize David Duke. Pretending he didn't know he was and that his headset wasn't working. Trump has white nationalists in his cabinet.

I was heartened by the unqualified criticism many GOP leaders offered about the event. That makes me hopeful.

OK, but that avoids the entire issue. I know you saw enough of the protests this weekend to realize the car crash (which Trump condemned unequivocally today as either murder or domestic terrorism or both) was not the only act of violence. Do you contend there were zero violent acts by those opposing the nazi-types? Or do you allow, as seems to be the case to me, that there was some unwarranted violence committed by them?