Why Some Animals (and People) Are Gay ...

[tooblue]

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1905237,00.html

Will "the liberation of homosexuals, which allows them to come out of the closet and not pretend to be straight" actually turn out to "contribute to the end of homosexuality?" We may not know for a thousand years, but it's a great question.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I was hoping the answer would be, because they are born with the desire to have sex with members of their same gender.

[RobinFinderson]

I have my own theory on gayness which doesn't explain gayness entirely, but works for a certain subset of gay males. It builds on Babs' post on evolutionary psychology.

Regarding homosexuality in males, following paths described by evolutionary psychology, alpha males tend to have multiple female sex partners. So what happens to the rest of the males? Some aren't going to be sufficiently masculine enough to compete against the dominant males. I think gayness, for some males, happens in the womb, when the embryo isn't exposed to enough testosterone, or whatever it is that masculinizes embryo/fetuses. Certain animals (humans included) have probably evolved to be gay, because removal from competition with alpha males is a survival benefit. Indeed, going out of one's way to sexually please alpha males might also be a survival benefit.

Anyhow, that is sort of my own personal working hypothesis. It doesn't explain how these survivalist gay ancestors would have spread their genetic material... maybe we evolved socially as well as individually, and social groups with gay members proved to be more durable. Just some of my musings.

[tooblue]

I have my own theory on gayness which doesn't explain gayness entirely, but works for a certain subset of gay males. It builds on Babs' post on evolutionary psychology.

Regarding homosexuality in males, following paths described by evolutionary psychology, alpha males tend to have multiple female sex partners. So what happens to the rest of the males? Some aren't going to be sufficiently masculine enough to compete against the dominant males. I think gayness, for some males, happens in the womb, when the embryo isn't exposed to enough testosterone, or whatever it is that masculinizes embryo/fetuses. Certain animals (humans included) have probably evolved to be gay, because removal from competition with alpha males is a survival benefit. Indeed, going out of one's way to sexually please alpha males might also be a survival benefit.

Anyhow, that is sort of my own personal working hypothesis. It doesn't explain how these survivalist gay ancestors would have spread their genetic material... maybe we evolved socially as well as individually, and social groups with gay members proved to be more durable. Just some of my musings.

The article states again and again that animals engage in same-gender sexual acts, which is not the same as being gay -- at least in the human sense. This quote was interesting:

One particularly charged finding is that in most species besides humans, same-gender pairings rarely lead to lifelong relationships. In other words, when one attractive bonobo male eyes another in a lovely patch of Congo swamp forest, they occasionally kiss and then move on to other oral pleasures, but they don't bother anyone afterward about trying to legalize their right to an open-banana-bar ceremony. In fact, they are likely to move on to girl bonobos: most animals that engage in same-gender sex acts do so only when an opposite-sex partner is unavailable.

[RobinFinderson]

The article states again and again that animals engage in same-gender sexual acts, which is not the same as being gay -- at least in the human sense. This quote was interesting:

My point, and it it really just a personal pet theory, is that gayness in all creatures that exhibit gayness might have a lot to do with the evolution of social fabric. Whether animals exhibit gay behavior the way humans do is beside the point. Animals in general aren't going to have the same social expectations of each other that humans have. It makes sense, doesn't it? If, in the womb, your body recognizes that it isn't going to have enough testosterone, or whatever cocktail masculinizes the male embryo, then maybe it is to your survivable benefit if you play a different role in society rather than compete with the alpha males for the ladies.

[landpoke]

I have my own theory on gayness which doesn't explain gayness entirely, but works for a certain subset of gay males. It builds on Babs' post on evolutionary psychology.

Regarding homosexuality in males, following paths described by evolutionary psychology, alpha males tend to have multiple female sex partners. So what happens to the rest of the males? Some aren't going to be sufficiently masculine enough to compete against the dominant males. I think gayness, for some males, happens in the womb, when the embryo isn't exposed to enough testosterone, or whatever it is that masculinizes embryo/fetuses. Certain animals (humans included) have probably evolved to be gay, because removal from competition with alpha males is a survival benefit. Indeed, going out of one's way to sexually please alpha males might also be a survival benefit.

Anyhow, that is sort of my own personal working hypothesis. It doesn't explain how these survivalist gay ancestors would have spread their genetic material... maybe we evolved socially as well as individually, and social groups with gay members proved to be more durable. Just some of my musings.

I've posted this before elsewhere, but here's my theory again:

I once read that the size of coyote litters has been found to rise and fall with the number of calls (howls) that can be heard in an area. More calls, smaller litters and vice versa. The article concluded that coyotes have some sort of coding in their genes that keeps their population at more or less the correct level and the howls would superficially appear to be the trigger mechanism. Based on this I've often wondered if homosexuality isn't something similar for humans. That is as the population grows more individuals are born gay (creating individuals that won't reproduce) to keep the population in check.

[RobinFinderson]

I've posted this before elsewhere, but here's my theory again:

I once read that the size of coyote litters has been found to rise and fall with the number of calls (howls) that can be heard in an area. More calls, smaller litters and vice versa. The article concluded that coyotes have some sort of coding in their genes that keeps their population at more or less the correct level and the howls would superficially appear to be the trigger mechanism. Based on this I've often wondered if homosexuality isn't something similar for humans. That is as the population grows more individuals are born gay (creating individuals that won't reproduce) to keep the population in check.

Interesting, landpoke. I've considered that theory as well. If this is the case, I wonder what the trigger would be.

[beefytee]

Interesting, landpoke. I've considered that theory as well. If this is the case, I wonder what the trigger would be.

It has seemed like it might have correlation with urbanization. Who knows?

[Fiyero]

That is as the population grows more individuals are born gay (creating individuals that won't reproduce) to keep the population in check.

I wonder what the gay numbers are like in India.

[SteelBlue]

I think gayness, for some males, happens in the womb, when the embryo isn't exposed to enough testosterone, or whatever it is that masculinizes embryo/fetuses.

I believe the going theory is hyperandrogenism, specifically an "overexposure" to testosterone in the womb. Seems counterintuitive but I believe that's the theory, especially as related to the finger length ratio type studies out there.

[RobinFinderson]

I believe the going theory is hyperandrogenism, specifically an "overexposure" to testosterone in the womb. Seems counterintuitive but I believe that's the theory, especially as related to the finger length ratio type studies out there.

So all of those lispy effete gay boys are overexposed to testosterone?

Maybe we are talking about two different brands of gayness here. You have your over-testosteroned dudes whose super-libidos make them willing to screw anyone, and then they develop a preference for men.

And then maybe there is the effete gay boy, who might not have developed strong masculine traits, and is therefore predisposed to gay behavior, so as not to compete with alpha males on the hunt.

Again, these are interesting ideas, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit if there are different root level factors for gayness.

[Fiyero]

I've often wondered if homosexuality isn't something similar for humans. That is as the population grows more individuals are born gay (creating individuals that won't reproduce) to keep the population in check.

Hmm, in 1963 the world population growth rate peaked at 2.20%. In 2007, it was only half as large, at 1.19%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_growth

[landpoke]

Hmm, in 1963 the world population growth rate peaked at 2.20%. In 2007, it was only half as large, at 1.19%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_growth

But has it actually slowed? Someone better with numbers than I can speak to this I suppose, but hasn't the population doubled in that time? And wouldn't that inidcated that the number quoted above, while a decrease in percentage, is not a decrease in actual births? Or something like that.

ADDENDUM: I guess the Wiki article speaks to that a bit.

[Jarid in Cedar]

But has it actually slowed? Someone better with numbers than I can speak to this I suppose, but hasn't the population doubled in that time? And wouldn't that inidcated that the number quoted above, while a decrease in percentage, is not a decrease in actual births? Or something like that.

The premise was that it would control the rate of birth, which coupled with the death rate would stabilize the population to a net sum zero equation.

[landpoke]

The premise was that it would control the rate of birth, which coupled with the death rate would stabilize the population to a net sum zero equation.

So the Coyote Theory has been proven. I guess I need to write a paper or something.