The Supreme Court, bastion of conservatism

[falafel]

I'm just reading the dissent bro. No matter what his prayer started out as, it clearly became more public. He started inviting the other teams over.
It seems like if it had continued as the 'silent and private' occurrence that it once was, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

Public isn't the issue. You can pray in public. You can pray in groups. In public. On government property.

[BigPiney]

Is everything that occurs on government property an official government function? Of course not. The game is over.

I'm not sure if I disagree with the bolded, but I'm not sure the facts support it. They may, but I haven't seen you point them out (and I'm not certain you are actually fully aware of the facts of the case).

Game is over but it is still a school function till everyone leaves the school grounds. I had a brawl break out after a soccer game last year. Sure the game was over but those students were still punished as if it had happened in the game.

[Northwestcoug]

Public isn't the issue. You can pray in public. You can pray in groups. In public. On government property.

Fine. It's not the act of praying on government property that's the problem. I'm trying to cut to the constitutional issue here. Is this not a separation of church and state issue, where a state employee is sanctioning one religion over others by his actions? Even if it's considered weak by you?

[falafel]

Game is over but it is still a school function till everyone leaves the school grounds. I had a brawl break out after a soccer game last year. Sure the game was over but those students were still punished as if it had happened in the game.

Maybe the school district treats it that way. Not sure the constitution does.

[falafel]

Fine. It's not the act of praying on government property that's the problem. I'm trying to cut to the constitutional issue here. Is this not a separation of church and state issue, where a state employee is sanctioning one religion over others by his actions? Even if it's considered weak by you?

Is he a state employee at all times? Isn't he a private person as well? At what point is he allowed to be a private individual with private interests that are also protected by the constitution? State employees have a first amendment right to the free exercise of religion too. This isn't one constitutional issue, its two.

[Goatnapper'96]

Fine. It's not the act of praying on government property that's the problem. I'm trying to cut to the constitutional issue here. Is this not a separation of church and state issue, where a state employee is sanctioning one religion over others by his actions? Even if it's considered weak by you?

How is praying, privately and silently, sanctioning a religion? I think the original prayer in school cases were won because something was actually audibly said so one could claim it sanctioned Christianity, but if it is a silent private prayer seems to me there is no specific religion sanctioned.

[Northwestcoug]

Is he a state employee at all times? Isn't he a private person as well? At what point is he allowed to be a private individual with private interests that are also protected by the constitution? State employees have a first amendment right to the free exercise of religion too. This isn't one constitutional issue, its two.

That's sort of a grey line. I think a HS coach essentially sermonizing on the field right after a game crosses that line though.

How is praying, privately and silently, sanctioning a religion? I think the original prayer in school cases were won because something was actually audibly said so one could claim it sanctioned Christianity, but if it is a silent private prayer seems to me there is no specific religion sanctioned.

It was neither private nor silent at the end, when he had been asked repeatedly by district officials to stop.

[falafel]

That's sort of a grey line. I think a HS coach essentially sermonizing on the field right after a game crosses that line though.



It was neither private nor silent at the end, when he had been asked repeatedly by district officials to stop.

The tough cases are the ones where the lines are hardest to draw. I respect and understand that not everyone agrees with where the line was drawn.

I don't see the relevance of whether the prayer was silent or not, though. The constitution doesn't just protect the silent exercise of religion.

[Northwestcoug]

The tough cases are the ones where the lines are hardest to draw. I respect and understand that not everyone agrees with where the line was drawn.

I don't see the relevance of whether the prayer was silent or not, though. The constitution doesn't just protect the silent exercise of religion.

The silent thing isn't relevant constitutionally. But the ruling used the phrase 'quiet and private', and others have latched onto the word 'silent'. I just think the word mischaracterizes what was going on.

[falafel]

The silent thing isn't relevant constitutionally. But the ruling used the phrase 'quiet and private', and others have latched onto the word 'silent'. I just think the word mischaracterizes what was going on.

We should straighten that out. Protests on the Capitol steps. "He was praying OUT LOUD!"

[Jeff Lebowski]

That's sort of a grey line. I think a HS coach essentially sermonizing on the field right after a game crosses that line though.

It was neither private nor silent at the end, when he had been asked repeatedly by district officials to stop.

You are putting a lot of weight into a few snarky tweets.

From the podcast transcripts:

Adam Liptak
And he takes the job, and he’s good at it. And part of the reason he’s good at it is because a lot of these kids are troubled, come from broken homes. And he does a great job in mentoring these young men.

Joe Kennedy
Everything I went through, being in group homes and foster homes and stuff like that, you see the best and worst in people, the strongest kids that you could possibly imagine going through the most horrific things. So that made perfect sense for me to be able to relate to these kids. And the whole, you need to find out what your calling is, well, I thought I did. I was a Marine. But little did I know that it was this.

Adam Liptak
And as in the movie, he starts praying after games. At first, he says, he’s out there by himself.

Joe Kennedy
And then a couple of the kids came over months later. They said, hey, coach, what are you doing out there? And I said, just thanking God for what He did. And they were like, well, can we join you? And I said, well, yeah, I mean, it’s America. It’s a free country. You do whatever you want to do. I mean, it wasn’t all the time because if you lose by 60 points, let me tell you, the kids do not want to come out and give thanks for anything.

Adam Liptak
And at times, he leads the students in prayer. At times, he leads the students in prayer in the locker room. And he does this for years and years.

Adam Liptak
Did anyone object?

Joe Kennedy
No. I mean, I had parents go, hey, what are you guys doing out there? And I said, well, I was just thanking God. And they were like, hey, I don’t want my kid doing that. And I’m like, that’s fine. I mean, these are —

Adam Liptak
It was, he says, never mandatory. He took no action, didn’t express favoritism to people who decided to pray with him or not. But nonetheless, here you have this public high school coach engaging in not only private, solitary prayer, but also leading students in prayer. There’s no question that this coach is popular. He’s effective. He’s beloved. And he’s praying.

Sabrina Tavernise
And how does he get in trouble? What happens?

Adam Liptak
The school district apparently was unaware that any of this was happening until a coach on an opposing team says to the Bremerton High School principal, I think it’s really neat you let the coach pray on the 50-yard line. And they go, we what? And there starts to be some negotiations and recriminations. And it goes ugly pretty fast.

Sabrina Tavernise
So what starts to happen, Adam?

Adam Liptak
Well, the school writes him a letter and says, we don’t object to private prayer, but it can’t interfere with the coach’s duties or involve students. And the coach says he’ll abide by that.

Joe Kennedy
And I talked to my team and told them, hey, I am not going to be praying with you guys. As you guys go to do your fight song, I’m going to do my prayer.

Adam Liptak
He says he’ll tell his students, they can’t come out on the field with him, but he still wants to come out on the field.

Joe Kennedy
They weren’t really happy with it, but I said, hey, this is the way it’s going to be. It has to be this way. We don’t need any more trouble here.

Adam Liptak
At the same time, the coach publicizes this dispute with the school district, and this becomes a thing.

Joe Kennedy
They had all these news vans parked all the way up and down the road here, waiting to do the 11 o’clock or whatever it was.

Adam Liptak
So that when he goes out to pray after getting this letter, there’s a ruckus. There’s a state lawmaker comes to pray with him. Students from the opposing team come to pray with him. And there’s this vivid picture of — I don’t know — 30 people on their knees in the middle of the football field.

Sabrina Tavernise
Wow. Suddenly doesn’t look like he’s complying.

Adam Liptak
Yeah, but to hear the coach tell it, what’s he supposed to do, run away? All he wants to do, he says, is offer his prayer.

Joe Kennedy
And I took a knee. And I had a really intense talk with God at that time, because I was like, is this me that’s doing this? Am I doing the right thing? I mean, I was questioning everything. I don’t want this big old thing. I was just wanting to be a football coach. And so, I said, God, I’m never going to fail you again. I’m always going to give you the glory, and I’m going to do it here, no matter what. I don’t care if it costs me everything.

Adam Liptak
And then there are a couple more games at which he prays, which are not nearly as wild. And then the school district kind of has it with him, puts him on administrative leave. It gives him the first bad performance review he’s gotten in eight years. And he doesn’t apply for reinstatement in the 2016 school year. And he remains a very popular figure in the community, which almost uniformly backs him.

Joe Kennedy
So a lot of people were here and witnessed actually what was going on. And they know who I am. They know I’m not that preachy guy trying to get these kids to join the cult or whatever. It’s me. So it was never an issue with anything. And they know that.

Adam Liptak
In talking to both sides, it’s a little head scratching why this has turned into such a big litigation. You would think that maybe they could have found some way to accommodate the coach’s faith and the school’s needs. But Kennedy sues, arguing that his First Amendment rights were violated. And the case has been kicking around in the courts ever since and just now, reached the Supreme Court for a very interesting argument.

[Jeff Lebowski]

From the last part of the Bremmerton vs Kennedy ruling summary:

ii. The District next attempts to justify its suppression of Mr. Kennedy’s religious activity by arguing that doing otherwise would coerce students to pray. The Ninth Circuit did not adopt this theory in proceedings below and evidence of coercion in this record is absent . The District suggests that any visible religious conduct by a teacher or coach should be deemed—without more and as a matter of law—impermissibly coercive on students. A rule that the only acceptable government role models for students are those who eschew any visible religious expression would undermine a long constitutional tradition in which learning how to tolerate diverse expressive activities has always been “part of learning how to live in a pluralistic society.” Lee v. Wesiman, 505 U. S. 577, 590. No historically sound understanding of the Establishment Clause begins to “mak[e] it necessary for government to be hostile to religion” in this way. Zorach v. Clauson, 343 U. S. 306, 314. Pp. 24–30.

iii. There is no conflict between the constitutional commands of the First Amendment in this case. There is only the “mere shadow” of a conflict, a false choice premised on a misconstruction of the Establishment Clause. School Dist. of Abington Township v. Schempp, 374 U. S. 203, 308 (Goldberg, J., concurring). A government entity’s concerns about phantom constitutional violations do not justify actual violations of an individual’s First Amendment rights. Pp. 30–31.

(c) Respect for religious expressions is indispensable to life in a free and diverse Republic. Here, a government entity sought to punish an individual for engaging in a personal religious observance, based on a mistaken view that it has a duty to suppress religious observances even as it allows comparable secular speech. The Constitution neither mandates nor tolerates that kind of discrimination. Mr. Kennedy is entitled to summary judgment on his religious exercise and free speech claims. Pp. 31–32.

[Northwestcoug]

You are putting a lot of weight into a few snarky tweets.

From the podcast transcripts:

Actually you'll notice that those snarky tweets directly quote the ruling and dissent, and not anyone's opinion of them. I'm basing my opinion on what's said, and admittedly I'm partial to the dissent.

I haven't listened to that podcast. Sounds like I would get a good idea of Kennedy's side of the story if I did.

[Omaha 680]

Game is over but it is still a school function till everyone leaves the school grounds. I had a brawl break out after a soccer game last year. Sure the game was over but those students were still punished as if it had happened in the game.

I hope you didn't still have to be on the field. In NYC we had the super dumb custom of hanging out on the field to witness the postgame handshake. In Utah were are explicitly instructed to hustle to the locker room the instant the referee holds up the ball at 0:00 in the 4th. I much prefer the latter. If teams or coaches want to fight after the game it's no longer my problem.

[BigPiney]

I hope you didn't still have to be on the field. In NYC we had the super dumb custom of hanging out on the field to witness the postgame handshake. In Utah were are explicitly instructed to hustle to the locker room the instant the referee holds up the ball at 0:00 in the 4th. I much prefer the latter. If teams or coaches want to fight after the game it's no longer my problem.

It was as I blew the whistle, pre handshake. I had turned around and was heading towards my gear when I heat it all erupt and haymakers were being thrown. I got out my pen and starting writing down numbers.

The same two teams were playing in basketball that night as well and a fight broke out during that game also.

Looks like the local team has a new rival and next year's games will be extra fun.