The Supreme Court, bastion of conservatism

[Jeff Lebowski]

What are everyone's thoughts on the Bremerton case? I have not read the whole opinion and will not have time to do so until I complete a larger task. Does it really open the door to teacher-led prayers in school as the headlines indicate?

There was a podcast a couple of months ago on this case by The Daily, which is the NYT's daily podcast. It made me really sympathetic with the coach's case - which surprised me given that it came from the NYT. He had a horrible childhood (foster homes, etc), and eventually found religion which turned his life around. He had a habit of kneeling and offering a silent prayer in the endzone after games. Eventually, a few of the players (often including people from the opposing team) would come on the field and join him. It blew up from there.

Here is a link to the podcast. Highly recommended:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/27/p...eme-court.html

Transcript:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/27/p...owTranscript=1

[All-American]

What are everyone's thoughts on the Bremerton case? I have not read the whole opinion and will not have time to do so until I complete a larger task. Does it really open the door to teacher-led prayers in school as the headlines indicate?

The decision turned on findings that the coach merely "offer[ed] a quiet personal prayer." I think the decision is susceptible to fair criticism regarding whether that is really true. But I don't think it will end up serving as a basis for activities like teacher-led prayer where the facts are in fact different than what the majority said they were here.

[Jeff Lebowski]

The decision turned on findings that the coach merely "offer[ed] a quiet personal prayer." I think the decision is susceptible to fair criticism regarding whether that is really true. But I don't think it will end up serving as a basis for activities like teacher-led prayer where the facts are in fact different than what the majority said they were here.

He initially offered silent prayers but eventually started leading verbal prayers with interested players. The school told him to knock if off so he went back to silent personal prayers. Some players insisted on praying with him (silently). They told him to stop that and he refused so they fired him.

[falafel]

I am interesting in West Virginia vs EPA. If the Court decides with West Virginia....this is pretty much going to kill Build Back Better, and Green New Deal stuff going forward. (Also....Dems are horrible at coming up with catchy names.)

Thoughts?

That's covered in the 200 level course.

[Northwestcoug]

What are everyone's thoughts on the Bremerton case? I have not read the whole opinion and will not have time to do so until I complete a larger task. Does it really open the door to teacher-led prayers in school as the headlines indicate?

Rightly or wrongly, I have become a Radley Balko devotee of SCOTUS criticism. He noted the clear disconnect between what the ruling said and what was really happening:

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And I thought Sotomayor's dissent, showing just how 'private' his prayers were, was pretty clever:

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[Jeff Lebowski]

Rightly or wrongly, I have become a Radley Balko devotee of SCOTUS criticism. He noted the clear disconnect between what the ruling said and what was really happening:

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And I thought Sotomayor's dissent, showing just how 'private' his prayers were, was pretty clever:

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Clever, but disingenuous. If a coach offers a private (silent) personal prayer and some people decide of their own accord to kneel next to him, does that mean it is no longer "private"?

[falafel]

Clever, but disingenuous. If a coach offers a private (silent) personal prayer and some people decide of their own accord to kneel next to him, does that mean it is no longer "private"?

Can you imagine this dude - privately praying on Sunday in a church with 100s of other people from the community???

[Moliere]

What are everyone's thoughts on the Bremerton case? I have not read the whole opinion and will not have time to do so until I complete a larger task. Does it really open the door to teacher-led prayers in school as the headlines indicate?

I don’t think that was the intent but it seems like it could crack that door open a bit. But you can’t tell a guy he can’t have a personal prayer in a public setting nor can you ban personal prayer on government property. So it’s a tough balance and it doesn’t surprise me this court ruled how they did. Frankly I agree with them.

[Northwestcoug]

Clever, but disingenuous. If a coach offers a private (silent) personal prayer and some people decide of their own accord to kneel next to him, does that mean it is no longer "private"?

I think the question here is just how private and silent it was (and became). And of course the compulsory overtones that go along with the coach/player relationship.

[falafel]

I think the question here is just how private and silent it was (and became). And of course the compulsory overtones that go along with the coach/player relationship.

Who cares how private or silent it was, as long it was not an official school function? Game is over, no one is compelled to come and participate. There was absolutely no negative repercussion for anyone who did not attend or participate.

[Northwestcoug]

Who cares how private or silent it was, as long it was not an official school function? Game is over, no one is compelled to come and participate. There was absolutely no negative repercussion for anyone who did not attend or participate.

Unless I'm missing how HS games are organized in Washington, they are played on school property and are sanctioned by the school district. Does it matter if the praying happened after a game? It's still a HS function.

Sure, most of those players shared the same religious beliefs as the coach. But most likely not all of them. Did they feel compelled to join in the prayer, kneeling down while his 'silent and personal' prayers turned more into sermons? Who knows. Still, there shouldn't be even the slightest concern of a religious preference in school functions. This clearly had it.

[falafel]

Unless I'm missing how HS games are organized in Washington, they are played on school property and are sanctioned by the school district. Does it matter if the praying happened after a game? It's still a HS function.

Sure, most of those players shared the same religious beliefs as the coach. But most likely not all of them. Did they feel compelled to join in the prayer, kneeling down while his 'silent and personal' prayers turned more into sermons? Who knows. Still, there shouldn't be even the slightest concern of a religious preference in school functions. This clearly had it.

Is everything that occurs on government property an official government function? Of course not. The game is over.

I'm not sure if I disagree with the bolded, but I'm not sure the facts support it. They may, but I haven't seen you point them out (and I'm not certain you are actually fully aware of the facts of the case).

[Moliere]

Unless I'm missing how HS games are organized in Washington, they are played on school property and are sanctioned by the school district. Does it matter if the praying happened after a game? It's still a HS function.

Sure, most of those players shared the same religious beliefs as the coach. But most likely not all of them. Did they feel compelled to join in the prayer, kneeling down while his 'silent and personal' prayers turned more into sermons? Who knows. Still, there shouldn't be even the slightest concern of a religious preference in school functions. This clearly had it.

What if a captain on the team had a ritual of offering a silent prayer by kneeling next to his locker? Should that be disallowed becssue it’s by someone who is I influential on the team and is taking place during a HS event? What about if the mom that leads the booster club decides to have a prayer circle under bleachers before each game? At what point do we just ban prayers on government property?

This coach pushed the line and it sounds like the majority opinion was very careful in how it ruled infavor of him.

[Northwestcoug]

Is everything that occurs on government property an official government function? Of course not. The game is over.

I'm not sure if I disagree with the bolded, but I'm not sure the facts support it. They may, but I haven't seen you point them out (and I'm not certain you are actually fully aware of the facts of the case).

I'm just reading the dissent bro. No matter what his prayer started out as, it clearly became more public. He started inviting the other teams over.
It seems like if it had continued as the 'silent and private' occurrence that it once was, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Shaka]

On balance, I find myself agreeing with the ruling.

Solid summary and reflects my feelings. I too though the dissent was strange.