On abortion

[frank ryan]

Having one child prevents all future children? Sorry, not buying that.

Funk it is possible to support choice without having to justify/rationalize every choice.



I agree.

Access to contraception (which believe it or not planned parenthood is good at) and effective social programs, with financial literacy attached to it, for the most commonly impacted poor populations would really make a huge difference. I don’t know many people who want more not less abortions. But enacting laws that make it more criminal than rape are not good faith efforts of addressing the issue.

[Northwestcoug]

Wasn't adoption an option? Have the child, give the child up for adoption, go back to college. There's a good chance she still would have met her future husband, had three additional children, and her career. I realize there is an emotional cost with giving up a child for adoption as well as having an abortion. In my view, that is the "cold calculus".

Sure, adoption is always an option, and I assume it was for her. I think it needs to be considered in most cases of unwanted pregnancies. But that doesn't mean adoption is the best option for everyone. I don't believe it is.

[Paperback Writer]

I understand your emotion. It is completely valid.

I appreciate LeGuin's words because they frame the decision to have an abortion in less passionate terms. I don't know what emotions she went through when she had hers (she made these remarks near the end of her life), but in retrospect she is weighing the decisions in her life and making a judgement call. She finished her degree, became a successful writer, and had her family. At least two of those would absolutely be in doubt had her circumstances been any different. And for not a few women currently, unwanted pregnancies can do the same.

I strongly believe that there is always an emotional cost for a decision to have an abortion. For some, it is too much. For many, the cost is still there, but it is outweighed by the good of a potential future. For LeGuin, the cold calculus was that her three children (more specifically their family life and situation) and a career outweighed one potential life.

Wasn't adoption an option? Have the child, give the child up for adoption, go back to college. There's a good chance she still would have met her future husband, had three additional children, and her career. I realize there is an emotional cost with giving up a child for adoption as well as having an abortion. In my view, that is the "cold calculus".

[Northwestcoug]

I am one whose life has been intimately touched by adoption and by mothers who chose life. For this mother to repeatedly refer to the aborted child as the "unwanted one" while referring to the three named children as "my joy, my pride, my loves" literally made me sick and angry. The "unwanted one" should have a name and should also be a parent's joy, pride, and love. Maybe it's more complex than that. But that's my worldview.

I understand your emotion. It is completely valid.

I appreciate LeGuin's words because they frame the decision to have an abortion in less passionate terms. I don't know what emotions she went through when she had hers (she made these remarks near the end of her life), but in retrospect she is weighing the decisions in her life and making a judgement call. She finished her degree, became a successful writer, and had her family. At least two of those would absolutely be in doubt had her circumstances been any different. And for not a few women currently, unwanted pregnancies can do the same.

I strongly believe that there is always an emotional cost for a decision to have an abortion. For some, it is too much. For many, the cost is still there, but it is outweighed by the good of a potential future. For LeGuin, the cold calculus was that her three children (more specifically their family life and situation) and a career outweighed one potential life.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I'll agree with using the term "aborted" by the law with her future children is over the top and hyperbolic. However, the point that had she had the child it would have potentially led to her not having any future children is absolutely a legitimate point.

Having one child prevents all future children? Sorry, not buying that.

Funk it is possible to support choice without having to justify/rationalize every choice.

No law is really going to eliminate abortions for convenience, they will continue to happen even if outlawed. You want to prevent abortions for convenience teach sex ed and make contraception available and cheap. Colorado reduced the teen birth rate by 54% and the abortion rate by 64%. Start there, not trying to overturn Roe v. Wade

I agree.

[MartyFunkhouser]

You condone hyperbole because you support nuance? Ok...



Yes of course, people were just trying to abort her future kids. I guess by this logic, when my wife and I decided to stop at 4 kids, we aborted several future kids.

I support choice under quite a few circumstances, but this line of reasoning is not very compelling. The tough thing about abortions for convenience is that is leads to this kind of moral rationalization/calculus where one argues why college, etc are more valuable than a human life.

I'll agree with using the term "aborted" by the law with her future children is over the top and hyperbolic. However, the point that had she had the child it would have potentially led to her not having any future children is absolutely a legitimate point.

No law is really going to eliminate abortions for convenience, they will continue to happen even if outlawed. You want to prevent abortions for convenience teach sex ed and make contraception available and cheap. Colorado reduced the teen birth rate by 54% and the abortion rate by 64%. Start there, not trying to overturn Roe v. Wade

[Jeff Lebowski]

No I don't find the logic in the quote tortured at best. I am willing to look at this issue and these moral questions with more nuance than that.

You condone hyperbole because you support nuance? Ok...

But it is the children I have to come back to, my children Elisabeth, Caroline, Theodore, my joy, my pride, my loves. If I had not broken the law and aborted that life nobody wanted, they would have been aborted by a cruel, bigoted, and senseless law. They would never have been born. This thought I cannot bear.

Yes of course, people were just trying to abort her future kids. I guess by this logic, when my wife and I decided to stop at 4 kids, we aborted several future kids.

I support choice under quite a few circumstances, but this line of reasoning is not very compelling. The tough thing about abortions for convenience is that is leads to this kind of moral rationalization/calculus where one argues why college, etc are more valuable than a human life.

[MartyFunkhouser]

#whatabouttrump

You don't find the logic in that quote tortured at best?

No I don't find the logic in the quote tortured at best. I am willing to look at this issue and these moral questions with more nuance than that.

You want to know how to really reduce abortion? Do what Colorado did with the IUD program. That had great results in reducing abortions and reducing suffering of children born to someone who is unprepared for that child. Of course, the people that are usually screaming abortion is murder don't want those sluty sluts having access to birth control, so that approach is out.

I'll believe this is about the sanctity of human life, when people pushing these types of laws also expand the safety net for families that unprepared for a child and put legislation in effect to limit the amount of unwanted pregnancies.

As much as I don't like Mia Love, I at least had respect for her when she gave her speech opposing abortion and indicated how we need to increase access to birth control. Every state should be following Colorado's IUD program.

[frank ryan]

#whatabouttrump

You don't find the logic in that quote tortured at best?

I don’t find concerns about these abortions laws leading to back alley procedures tortured logic. Also, I don’t see this debate as cut and dry as everyone else. I don’t like abortion and I’m glad none of us get pregnant.
Yeah, I engaged in some whataboutism I suppose, but it’s relevant stuff in wapiti’s case.

[wapiti]

As a proponent of moral relativism, I completely respect your opinion. However, I suppose that people who find that quote sickening fail to see the complex moral decisions women make when deciding to have an abortion. If there is a moral high ground, it certainly isn't inhabited by those who cannot appreciate how complex that decision is.

I am one whose life has been intimately touched by adoption and by mothers who chose life. For this mother to repeatedly refer to the aborted child as the "unwanted one" while referring to the three named children as "my joy, my pride, my loves" literally made me sick and angry. The "unwanted one" should have a name and should also be a parent's joy, pride, and love. Maybe it's more complex than that. But that's my worldview.

[wapiti]

Your moral grandstanding is dumb.

Howard Stern suggested that Trump had probably paid for multiple abortions in his day. Why do I suspect if that came out, you’d ignore it?

I hate Donald Trump. I didn't vote for him. I won't vote him. For you to turn my heartfelt reaction to that awful quote into a Trump bash is ridiculous. If you read my post history, the only contexts in which I have defended Trump is the Russia investigation, which I still hold was a ridiculous witch hunt, and some of the other obviously political investigations (tax returns). I think now that the Mueller investigation is over, my position there has been sufficiently vindicated. You have a one-track mind. It's all Trump, all the time.

My post was not grandstanding. That post stirred real emotions in me that I did not even know I had.

[Northwestcoug]

#whatabouttrump

You don't find the logic in that quote tortured at best?

Your mistake is trying to understand logic in someone's personal decision laden with human emotion. It was her decision, and that is how she framed it. Not knowing anything about the era (and I suppose being a fan of her writing), I'll trust that emotional decision did have some logic to back it up.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Your moral grandstanding is dumb.

Howard Stern suggested that Trump had probably paid for multiple abortions in his day. Why do I suspect if that came out, you’d ignore it?

#whatabouttrump

You don't find the logic in that quote tortured at best?

[Northwestcoug]

That quote is sickening.

As a proponent of moral relativism, I completely respect your opinion. However, I suppose that people who find that quote sickening fail to see the complex moral decisions women make when deciding to have an abortion. If there is a moral high ground, it certainly isn't inhabited by those who cannot appreciate how complex that decision is.

[frank ryan]

That quote is sickening.

Your moral grandstanding is dumb.

Howard Stern suggested that Trump had probably paid for multiple abortions in his day. Why do I suspect if that came out, you’d ignore it?