The Official Drought Thread

[Copelius]

In Utah agriculture is the #1 water consumer statewide[1] (I think golf might be #2). Water state-wide, and especially agricultural water, is taxpayer subsidized[4]. For agriculture, alfalfa is the top crop in Utah consuming over 50% of all agricultural water use [1] and is a heavy water user [2]. A large percentage of Utah-grown alfalfa is not used in state but is instead sold/shipped to Asian countries, mainly China [3]

[1] https://utahwaterfacts.com/
[2] https://www.sustainablewaters.org/wh...-much-alfalfa/
[3] https://hayandforage.com/article-338...y-exports.html
[4] https://gopb.utah.gov/waterfunding/#agriculture

So, to sum up Utah is:

• Subsidizing the cost of one of our most precious natural resources
• Using that precious natural resource to grow a water-intensive silage crop in a frigging desert
• Shipping the bulk of that silage-crop to China

We're basically selling off our water to the Chinese. All this is done to "preserve the agricultural way of life and agricultural economy" of the state - basically subsidizing farmers and farms.

Like the Dude says, this problem would be solved overnight if we a) stopped growing water-hungry crops, or b) stopped subsidizing the water used to grow water-hungry crops. Without the subsidies it would be economically unfeasible to grow alfalfa and ship it to China.

I generally like Spencer Cox but I don't like how he perpetuates the myth of "preserving the heritage of family farms" with water policy/law in the state. It's a bunch of BS.

Yet the propaganda has penetrated deeply into the populace. Everytime we drive past a farm being turned into a housing development, I have to hear the bemoaning cries, "But what will we do for food?" and "Where will the water come from?"

I have given up trying to explain that the farms we are seeing are generally the alfalfa types described above and that overall 20 acres of housing development uses less water than 20 acres of alfalfa, because the farm heritage crapola is deeply embeded.

[beefytee]

Our first home came at the expense of an alfalfa field. It was tough to get rid of the alfalfa when we were putting in off back lawn. Super tough plant. Killing it with round up was fine, but trying to pull it out or dig it up prior to that was near impossible.

[Pelado]

What is alfalfa even good for? Feeding livestock? Anything else?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Really weird discussion. Why is producing and selling stuff to the Chinese such a bad thing? Walk me through the logic here. It is a big business in the state and it helps reduce our trade imbalance.

[beefytee]

Is stopping water use in isolated areas helpful to make water available in urban areas? Are the aquifers that connected that they would make a big difference far away?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Is stopping water use in isolated areas helpful to make water available in urban areas? Are the aquifers that connected that they would make a big difference far away?

Generally, no.

[Omaha 680]

Really weird discussion. Why is producing and selling stuff to the Chinese such a bad thing? Walk me through the logic here. It is a big business in the state and it helps reduce our trade imbalance.

Trade imbalance is a nonsequitur in most conversations and in particular this one. Assuming free/fair trade, deficits and surpluses arise naturally, with the more developed nations typically carrying the deficits. Just like deficits arent automatically bad, reducing deficits isn't automatically good.

But in cases of extremely scarce resources or national security concerns, im fine with the state stepping in and creating barriers to redirect where economic forces woild push trade naturally. Water is one of the most precious resources we have in the American west. Farmers using it for alfalfa production in utah are receiving the water (a public resource) at a fraction of the current market value. I think the consternation in the above conversation is not so much about trade with the Chinese but that the current water use in Utah is an extreme misallalocation of public resources.

[falafel]

What is alfalfa even good for? Feeding livestock? Anything else?

sucking up water

[Jeff Lebowski]

Trade imbalance is a nonsequitur in most conversations and in particular this one. Assuming free/fair trade, deficits and surpluses arise naturally, with the more developed nations typically carrying the deficits. Just like deficits arent automatically bad, reducing deficits isn't automatically good.

But in cases of extremely scarce resources or national security concerns, im fine with the state stepping in and creating barriers to redirect where economic forces woild push trade naturally. Water is one of the most precious resources we have in the American west. Farmers using it for alfalfa production in utah are receiving the water (a public resource) at a fraction of the current market value. I think the consternation in the above conversation is not so much about trade with the Chinese but that the current water use in Utah is an extreme misallalocation of public resources.

A fraction of the current market value? How does this work? We don't currently have a water market, so who is paying a higher rate? We have prior appropriation water right and farmers own a lot of water shares.

For the record, Utah law prohibits the state water purveyors from charging more for water than the actual cost of delivering it to the end user. So everyone is getting a bargain.

[All-American]

Just in case anybody thinks smart practical solutions like intelligent use policies sounds boring and wants to overengineer the crap out of this, check out this one:

https://youtu.be/iN27GcrkXVo?si=RnFyEmKGtCvrWOyY

[Omaha 680]

A fraction of the current market value? How does this work? We don't currently have a water market, so who is paying a higher rate? We have prior appropriation water right and farmers own a lot of water shares.

For the record, Utah law prohibits the state water purveyors from charging more for water than the actual cost of delivering it to the end user. So everyone is getting a bargain.

Ok yes, very clumsy way of me trying to state the current appropriation of Utah rights no longer makes sense given the massive population growth and change is agriculture land use that has occurred since. Utah ag has shifted to alfalfa because it requires minimal labor and the water is cheap. If there is clear data that alfalfa production is a great economic boon to utah i could certainly be convinced to chsnge my mind. But when we need record snowfall years to keep the great salt lake from disappearing, current practice is clearly not sustainable. With 80% of Utah water going to farming and 50% (?) going to alfalfa that seems extremely misallocated. Again if we had surpluses and the lake was on a healthy long term trajectory I wouldn't GAF.

You stated above that shifting ag away from thirsty crops like almonds in the central Valley is a needed strategy which I agree with. Does this not extend to alfalfa for us, being alfalfa is the almonds of the Utah water rights issues? What am I missing?

[BigFatMeanie]

Really weird discussion. Why is producing and selling stuff to the Chinese such a bad thing? Walk me through the logic here. It is a big business in the state and it helps reduce our trade imbalance.

EDIT: Never mind. Omaha responded better than I did.

[Donuthole]

Also, tons of farmers grow alfalfa solely because they want to grow the cheapest cheap crop that will allow them to pay greenbelt taxes on the land. Maybe let’s incentivize not growing water thirsty crops just to save on taxes.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Ok yes, very clumsy way of me trying to state the current appropriation of Utah rights no longer makes sense given the massive population growth and change is agriculture land use that has occurred since. Utah ag has shifted to alfalfa because it requires minimal labor and the water is cheap. If there is clear data that alfalfa production is a great economic boon to utah i could certainly be convinced to chsnge my mind. But when we need record snowfall years to keep the great salt lake from disappearing, current practice is clearly not sustainable. With 80% of Utah water going to farming and 50% (?) going to alfalfa that seems extremely misallocated. Again if we had surpluses and the lake was on a healthy long term trajectory I wouldn't GAF.

You stated above that shifting ag away from thirsty crops like almonds in the central Valley is a needed strategy which I agree with. Does this not extend to alfalfa for us, being alfalfa is the almonds of the Utah water rights issues? What am I missing?

Much of the alfalfa in Utah is grown in places like Millard County and Sanpete County. You can't economically move that water to the Wasatch Front anyway. So who cares if they grow alfalfa? And that water does not drain to the GSL.

As for both alfalfa and almonds, if the farmer owns the water rights, they can grow whatever they want. My comment about almonds in the Central Valley is that this is fundamentally a solvable problem in the long run. Maybe someday we decide that we are going to be more social/communist and we nationalize water and confiscate it from the current owners as some of you seem to be implying. Personally, I think market forces will organically solve the problem over time. Much of the water used to drive land development on the wasatch front occurs due to farmers selling their water rights (and often their land) to developers or to cities. When Geneva Steel shut down, they had massive water rights. Central Utah Water Conservancy District bought them all and then they dole them out to cities as needed.

Here's another thought: If you tell Central Valley farmers they can't grow almonds because they require too much water. They will simply shift to other crops and use the water they own anyway. Ditto for alfalfa. You can be as upset as you want about selling alfalfa to china, but we have massive infrastructure in place to support this industry (canal companies, irrigation systems, laser-leveled farms, production and distribution, etc). It supports a big part of our local economy and losing it would have significant consequences.

As for the Great Salt Lake, things aren't nearly as dire as some would have you believe.

[USUC]

My childhood home (in the family trust and will... eventually be mine), has a large front and back lawn and a decent sized side lawn. We've always had secondary water to handle it, but the city has now metered it and it will soon be cost prohibitive to keep that much lawn. So I have been researching how to landscape it in a way that isn't just rock that soaks up and gives more heat. In researching more water efficient plants for Utah I have stumbled into the most depressing discussions on the future of Utah and the megadrought that had lasted for the past 25 years and I've sunken deep into the doom and gloom climate despair that I've seen overtake and make reasonable people insufferable. I'm sure it's at a fever now pitch given or current December, but there doesn't seem to be any expert that isn't predicting the megadrought is the new norm. Maybe I should put of researching landscaping more until the spring.