Same-sex marriage coming to Utah

[swampfrog]

He did not say "There are no homosexual people in the church." That iteration is from the formula presented by the Iranian President.

He did indeed say those exact words. If you watch the video from the link, it's apparent that he had a motivation to change the question, and that phrase was his hook. Fairly common practice to say something slightly controversial, and then walk it back by clarifying the context. His point is understood, but that was probably not the best way to present it given the climate around this topic. No different than Paul: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

[creekster]

He did indeed say those exact words. If you watch the video from the link, it's apparent that he had a motivation to change the question, and that phrase was his hook. Fairly common practice to say something slightly controversial, and then walk it back by clarifying the context. His point is understood, but that was probably not the best way to present it given the climate around this topic. No different than Paul: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

You're correct; I was wrong. Obviously I read too quickly. I also agree with your other two points here, fwiw.

[Northwestcoug]

You're correct; I was wrong. Obviously I read too quickly. I also agree with your other two points here, fwiw.

Wait, you didn't know he used that exact phrase? Sweet! I win the argument!

[Jeff Lebowski]

Wait, you didn't know he used that exact phrase? Sweet! I win the argument!

Hurry and tell your daughter!

[smokymountainrain]

Hurry and tell your daughter!

[creekster]

Wait, you didn't know he used that exact phrase? Sweet! I win the argument!

Really? IF you think so, enjoy.

[Northwestcoug]

Hurry and tell your daughter!

Ha!

One CS fight won, yet tomorrow will certainly bring a new argument. The struggle continues.

[Paperback Writer]

Ha!

One CS fight won, yet tomorrow will certainly bring a new argument. The struggle continues.

Change it from "the struggle" to "my struggle" and write a book - Lebowski will probably read it.

[Northwestcoug]

Change it from "the struggle" to "my struggle" and write a book - Lebowski will probably read it.

No kidding. Man, has he been proving Godwin's law a lot here lately...

[Jeff Lebowski]

No kidding. Man, has he been proving Godwin's law a lot here lately...

And I am a nazi about Godwin's Law! Go figure.

[swampfrog]

And there's only one reason why he'd doing that: to differentiate the church's definition of homosexuality from the rest of the world.

I disagree with there being only one reason. Also, granting that there is more than one reason, I disagree that this was Bednar's reason for making the statement. After watching the video, it can be observed that he is very deliberate in his delivery and the wording that was used cannot be removed from the context of his next few thoughts. I think it unfair to assign motivation beyond the same point which is made in the New Testament multiple times in addition to the one I quoted previously.

His teaching, both in content and method, here is consistent with Colossians Chapter 3--given the current church doctrine regarding homosexual behavior.

Note that I'm not advocating the church's position, the inclusion of the word "current" is done purposely.

[Northwestcoug]

I disagree with there being only one reason. Also, granting that there is more than one reason, I disagree that this was Bednar's reason for making the statement. After watching the video, it can be observed that he is very deliberate in his delivery and the wording that was used cannot be removed from the context of his next few thoughts. I think it unfair to assign motivation beyond the same point which is made in the New Testament multiple times in addition to the one I quoted previously.

His teaching, both in content and method, here is consistent with Colossians Chapter 3--given the current church doctrine regarding homosexual behavior.

Note that I'm not advocating the church's position, the inclusion of the word "current" is done purposely.

Fair enough. It is my opinion that Bednar believes that homosexuality is not an inherent quality in humans. He feels that 'same sex attraction' is an affliction that affects some people, but it in no way defines a person. I think that is why after he said, "there are no homosexual members in the church", he went on comparing same sex attraction to other physical afflictions that do not define members' innate characteristics. Since public opinion is becoming more sympathetic to homosexuals, in both secular and religious spheres, I think Bednar is drawing a line in the sand for Mormon doctrine. And yes, he has scriptures to back up his views.

I really do believe it is that simple.

[wuapinmon]

I've always disliked how the Church translates "challenge" in English as "desafío" rather than "reto." The difference is slight, and the dictionaries will show them as essentially synonymous, but in usage a reto is a challenge to overcome, whereas a desafío is usually a challenge from someone (like to a duel). I don't like the usage of desafío. You'll be hard-pressed to find "challenge" translated as "reto" in Church literature.

With that said, Bednar is channeling Paul here. I respect the way he's making his point, even though I find it pathological to members who feel they are homosexuals and struggle to remain in the faith.

[creekster]

Ha!

One CS fight won, yet tomorrow will certainly bring a new argument. The struggle continues.

You did not win the fight with me. Explain how you think so. Even having used the precise phrase described by Swampfrog (and he did) your comparison to the Iranian position was odious and misleading and there was no attempt by Bednar to redefine anything; he rephrased a question.

[swampfrog]

Fair enough. It is my opinion that Bednar believes that homosexuality is not an inherent quality in humans. He feels that 'same sex attraction' is an affliction that affects some people, but it in no way defines a person. I think that is why after he said, "there are no homosexual members in the church", he went on comparing same sex attraction to other physical afflictions that do not define members' innate characteristics. Since public opinion is becoming more sympathetic to homosexuals, in both secular and religious spheres, I think Bednar is drawing a line in the sand for Mormon doctrine. And yes, he has scriptures to back up his views.

I really do believe it is that simple.

I've never had a problem with the argument that some single characteristic or trait, whether innate or not, should not define you. I could define myself many ways, some better than others. I don't know what Bednar believes is inherent or not, but it would not surprise me if he does believe as you stated. My understanding of this particular response was not to argue innateness or not, but that you could substitute both inherent and non-inherent characteristics for homosexuality. I also believe he avoided the question and gave the Sunday school answer. That doesn't make the Sunday school answer invalid, but it wasn't helpful in answering the real pain and anguish that is probably behind the original question.

As for the Sunday school lesson he decided to teach, I agree with it. My brown eyes don't define me, my heterosexuality does not define me, nor does the color of my skin, heritage, culture, or myriad of other attributes. As Paul stated bond or free (non-inherent), Jew or Greek (inherent), neither matters with respect to the gift of salvation--when you are one with Christ. They are part of me and the risk is I let one or more of them get in the way of accepting Christ's gift.

I have not reached such a state, neither has the church nor Bednar, but I do know that is the state I'm (or at least know I should be) ultimately striving for--usually failing miserably.

12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.