Same-sex marriage coming to Utah

[TripletDaddy]

Mark Twain sez he doesn't have to help you understand anything.

Cowboy is picking and choosing his Mark Twain as it suits his purposes

The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so “slow,” so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle — keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate.

Maybe CS Lewis would have been a better appeal to authority next time!

[cowboy]

im happy to give you your opinion. can you help me understand it? you seemed to strategically use the word "strong" to emphasize the nature of your opinion so I would assume you have some sort of additional insight into the issue beyond personal feelings.

I explained why I feel this way in another place at another time. You may or may not have participated in the discussion, but I'm sure you saw it. Let's just say my opinion won't be swayed on this point and leave it at that. I'm not offended if you or anyone else disagree.

couples? there are myriad single parent situations, as well. what do we do about those kids? also, this notion that kids "deserve" something, is it based in anything other than idealism? Why do kids "deserve" to be born into two parent households? in fact I'm not even sure I know what that means from a practical standpoint. Humans, regardless of age, ideally deserve a lot of wonderful things but that isn't really how life has ever worked.

Kids deserve something because they're human beings, and they have rights. Because they're entirely dependent upon other people for their survival, society needs to protect them until they can protect themselves. And you are right, they deserve a lot of things that they don't receive, but it doesn't mean we should stop encouraging society to give children what they deserve. Also, I purposefully use the word 'encourage' because I don't think this is something that can or should be regulated or legislated.

[TripletDaddy]

I explained why I feel this way in another place at another time. You may or may not have participated in the discussion, but I'm sure you saw it. Let's just say my opinion won't be swayed on this point and leave it at that. I'm not offended if you or anyone else disagree.



Kids deserve something because they're human beings, and they have rights. Because they entirely dependent upon other people for their survival, society needs to protect them until they can protect themselves. And you are right, they deserve a lot of things that they don't receive, but it doesn't mean we should stop encouraging society to give children what they deserve. Also, I purposefully use the word 'encourage' because I don't think this is something that can or should be regulated or legislated.

I think this is where the argument falls apart, at least if you want to be consistent. Human beings, regardless of age, "deserve" stuff. I think that is what gay people have been saying all along. You seem to agree.

That being said, not sure what rights are at issue. There are no rights for kids to be born into families with heterosexual parents. I agree that minors have rights, many rights, but that is not one of them.

I don't recall the prior discussion off the top of my head but I would have to think this topic has been rehashed already. If you are not open to be swayed or educated then I agree it is a moot point to discuss, but also generally not a good place to be, either. Light and truth.....light and truth....

[Commando]

In discussions like these, I refer to the great minds... Chris Rock, Louis CK... et al. They truly do have the best insight. Too bad the bits I'm thinking about are copyright blocked on youtube.

[Northwestcoug]

I agree with you, but I think that, while being a hetero couple may not have an automatic parenting ability advantage, with all other things being equal I believe that a child raised by a hetero couple will be happier. I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that a child wants both a mother and a father as they grow up. I know I did.

Perhaps, though this is impossible to prove. I probably would have felt the same (also growing up in a small Wyoming town during my formative years). But I assume my preference for heterosexual parents would also have been largely dictated by societal norms at the time. I don't know how anyone of us can judge a child's level of happiness based on the sexuality of their parents, without being biased by their own upbringing and other anecdotal evidence.

[Flystripper]

If we are talking about belief here, I don't believe that the sexual orientation of parents has anything to do with a child's happiness or lack thereof. So Cowboy believes one thing, and I believe another. What does the data suggest now that we have had some experience with gay couples rearing children?

[Commando]

If we are talking about belief here, I don't believe that the sexual orientation of parents has anything to do with a child's happiness or lack thereof. So Cowboy believes one thing, and I believe another. What does the data suggest now that we have had some experience with gay couples rearing children?

I don't think there has been any reliable data released, just an abundance of people's gut feelings on the matter. So I when I see people jumping all over Cowboy, calling him a bigot, etc. when he clearly prefaced his opinion by stating it is his opinion.

[Flystripper]

I don't think there has been any reliable data released, other than people's gut feelings on the matter. So I when I see people jumping all over Cowboy, calling him a bigot, etc. when he clearly prefaced his opinion by stating it is his opinion.

I didn't call him a bigot

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/14/635/abstract

[Flystripper]

also

http://journals.lww.com/jrnldbp/Abst...ldren_.12.aspx

[Commando]

I didn't call him a bigot

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/14/635/abstract

No, but my point remains. Engage with your data points, opinions, etc and come to some understanding. Just bugs me when civil folks are shouted down by the more 'enlightened' ones.

[Flystripper]

article referencing both studies:

http://www.salon.com/2014/07/06/worl...er_than_peers/

[TripletDaddy]

No, but my point remains. Engage with your data points, opinions, etc and come to some understanding. Just bugs me when civil folks are shouted down by the more 'enlightened' ones.

what are you on about??

[cowboy]

I didn't call him a bigot

You didn't, and I appreciate the links. Since happiness can't be measured, this is a subject that will always be at least partly subjective. I can't read the studies you linked, but most of the studies I see compare SS couple's kids to the general population. It seems that a better comparison would be adopted kids from SS parents to adopted kids from hetero parents, adjusting for all the noise in the process. I'd think that anyone who wants kids badly enough to go through the adoption process would likely outperform the general population as a parent.

[Applejack]

You didn't, and I appreciate the links. Since happiness can't be measured, this is a subject that will always be at least partly subjective. I can't read the studies you linked, but most of the studies I see compare SS couple's kids to the general population. It seems that a better comparison would be adopted kids from SS parents to adopted kids from hetero parents, adjusting for all the noise in the process. I'd think that anyone who wants kids badly enough to go through the adoption process would likely outperform the general population as a parent.

I think this undercuts your argument, no?

[cowboy]

I think this undercuts your argument, no?

Again, apples to apples. My opinion is based on all other factors being equal.