Well, the Pope isn't down with capitalism

[Uncle Ted]

http://www.smh.com.au/world/pope-bla...517-2jru9.html



Apparently he feels the average North Korean is happier than the average American. Good to know.

(P.S. This post got me a 7-day suspension on CB, so you know it's really good.)

Let me know when the catholic church starts selling on off their riches like the massive amount of priceless stuff they have stock piled in the vatican museums, a lot of which was acquired as spoils of their crusades, and starts serving the people.

[pellegrino]

I didnt mean to offend the Jesuits. I actually graduated from a Jesuit university (where more than a few of the Jesuits WERE communists, btw) and have great respect for the order. But sometimes their zealousness is an easy target

Oh, I didn't think you offended any Jesuits, and yes, there are communist Jesuits, just like there are radical socialist/communist catholic political parties. I think the point I was trying to make is that in America we always associate Christianity with conservativism and capitalism, which just isn't the case in Europe. We should expect more statements like this from Pope Francis. It's a part of his ethos.

[Uncle Ted]

Why he's talking about what? Focusing on something other than money? Leaving money aside to pursue more worthy goals?

That actually sounds pretty familiar to me... what other spiritual guy may have said similar comments?

It isn't the job of a Catholic pope to preach about an economic order that fundamentally relies on greed to thrive. It may not be realistic to expect greed to disappear and alternate economic orders to function in this life, but I don't know why you would single this teaching out for being unattainable and not others (sexual purity, integrity in all dealings, no birth control, eliminating the other 6 deadly sins in addition to greed, etc.). The pope is setting the aspirational standard. What's more confusing to me is why so many Mormons believe capitalism is actually the aspirational standard.

Yep, SLC is going to hell in a hand basket given many have sold their souls to Goldman Sacks...

This story in the Daily Telegraph (London) recounts the growing success of Goldman Sachs, the investment banking firm, in Salt Lake City.

(Goldman) initially focused on support staff, but in recent years it has added asset managers, research analysts and investment bankers. Goldman now has nearly 2,000 employees in Salt Lake — almost 5pc of its global workforce — making the city its second-largest operation in America, and its fourth largest worldwide.

Far from balking at the investment banking giant on their doorstep, Salt Lake City residents are grateful for the jobs Goldman has brought, and are perplexed by the hostility the bank faces in other parts of America. The unemployment rate in Utah is 4.9pc, compared with a 7.6pc national average.

I am of two minds about this. On the one hand, Goldman Sachs is a classic crony capitalist company. Goldman makes the vast majority of its money because of its cozy relationship with the government. Without Fed money-printing and influence-peddling in Washington, Goldman would either not exist or it would be a tiny company with very little influence. Goldman regularly sends bankers to Washington, where they promote big government, and then they return to Wall Street to make more millions. Goldman is, in my opinion, the classic case of a secret combination on a national scale.

http://www.millennialstar.org/is-the-success-of-goldman-sachs-in-salt-lake-city-a-sign-of-increasing-wickedness/

And Heber C prophesied y'all are doomed there in Zion living next to that multi-billion dollar mall...

After a while the Gentiles will gather by the thousands to this place, and Salt Lake City will be classed among the wicked cities of the world. A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possession of the Saints, and the results will be financial bondage.

Persecution comes next and all true Latter-day Saints will be tested to the limit. Many will apostatize and others will be still not knowing what to do. Darkness will cover the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people. The judgments of God will be poured out on the wicked to the extent that our Elders from far and near will be called home, or in other words the gospel will be taken from the Gentiles and later on carried to the Jews.

The western boundary of the State of Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that as President Young tells us, when you return to that place, there will not be left so much as a yellow dog to wag his tail.

Before that day comes, however, the Saints will be put to a test that will try the integrity of the best of them. The pressure will become so great that the more righteous among them will cry unto the Lord day and night until deliverance comes.

—Heber C. Kimball, First Counselor in the First Presidency, May 1868, in Deseret News, 23 May 1931; see also Conference Report, Oct. 1930, p. 58-59

So get out while you can and stay away from Western Missouri too. We are praying for y'all.

[Moliere]

I'm not so sure that capitalism is at fault here....in fact capitalism is probably the byproduct of human nature.

[Indy Coug]

Oh, for the days of feudalism.

[Blueintheface]

Why he's talking about what? Focusing on something other than money? Leaving money aside to pursue more worthy goals?

That actually sounds pretty familiar to me... what other spiritual guy may have said similar comments?

It isn't the job of a Catholic pope to preach about an economic order that fundamentally relies on greed to thrive. It may not be realistic to expect greed to disappear and alternate economic orders to function in this life, but I don't know why you would single this teaching out for being unattainable and not others (sexual purity, integrity in all dealings, no birth control, eliminating the other 6 deadly sins in addition to greed, etc.). The pope is setting the aspirational standard. What's more confusing to me is why so many Mormons believe capitalism is actually the aspirational standard.

Our gospel doctrine lesson a few months ago turned somehow from the Law of Consecration to capitalism vs communism. I took perverse pleasure in mediating the discussion.

[SandYFan]

Why he's talking about what? Focusing on something other than money? Leaving money aside to pursue more worthy goals?

That actually sounds pretty familiar to me... what other spiritual guy may have said similar comments?

It isn't the job of a Catholic pope to preach about an economic order that fundamentally relies on greed to thrive. It may not be realistic to expect greed to disappear and alternate economic orders to function in this life, but I don't know why you would single this teaching out for being unattainable and not others (sexual purity, integrity in all dealings, no birth control, eliminating the other 6 deadly sins in addition to greed, etc.). The pope is setting the aspirational standard. What's more confusing to me is why so many Mormons believe capitalism is actually the aspirational standard.

Preaching general principles of selflessness and giving to the poor and following Jesus' teachings is one thing. Saying "...countries should impose more control over their economies" is another.

[byu71]

http://www.smh.com.au/world/pope-bla...517-2jru9.html



Apparently he feels the average North Korean is happier than the average American. Good to know.

(P.S. This post got me a 7-day suspension on CB, so you know it's really good.)

Hard to believe the Pope has never read the parable of the "talents". Maybe he read it and thought "talents" refers to being able to sing and dance.

[cowboy]

Why he's talking about what? Focusing on something other than money? Leaving money aside to pursue more worthy goals?

That actually sounds pretty familiar to me... what other spiritual guy may have said similar comments?

It isn't the job of a Catholic pope to preach about an economic order that fundamentally relies on greed to thrive. It may not be realistic to expect greed to disappear and alternate economic orders to function in this life, but I don't know why you would single this teaching out for being unattainable and not others (sexual purity, integrity in all dealings, no birth control, eliminating the other 6 deadly sins in addition to greed, etc.). The pope is setting the aspirational standard. What's more confusing to me is why so many Mormons believe capitalism is actually the aspirational standard.

It's quite simple, actually. Those many Mormons you speak of understand that providing for the poor is a moral decision, while choosing capitalism is an economic one. Don't feel bad, though, you liberals get the two mixed up all the time.

[Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz]

Why would you think it is black and white? It isn't just capitalism or Marxist communism as choices.

When he discusses "free-market" capitalism, he is speaking of some specific variant of capitalism. He is also right, it has been shocking damaging to the American economy and elsewhere. There are "softer and kinder" versions of capitalism that still use the market but actually don't create the same problems he describes well. Germany and a few Scandanavian countries have figured that out in their respective contexts. We can't just copy their versions because of different situations, but there are uniquely American forms of Capitalism that come much closer to what you saw in the early days of the Republic. Teddy Roosevelt was right when he talked of a "New Nationalism," a kinder capitalism that was uniquely American, a return to more traditional American values.

The version preached by libertarians and today's conservatives is far removed from that better (my word) version.

Can you tell me what exactly this is supposed to mean? It sounds like nothing more than a bunch of mealymouthed feelgoodery.

[Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz]

Hard to believe the Pope has never read the parable of the "talents". Maybe he read it and thought "talents" refers to being able to sing and dance.

Thank you for bringing this up. It's a personal pet peeve - exactly 100% of sacrament meeting speakers who reference the parable of the talents fail to grasp the fact that a talent was a monetary measurement.

[SCcoug]

Thank you for bringing this up. It's a personal pet peeve - exactly 100% of sacrament meeting speakers who reference the parable of the talents fail to grasp the fact that a talent was a monetary measurement.

Interpreting the talents in the parable as money in one way to look at it.

[frank ryan]

Preaching general principles of selflessness and giving to the poor and following Jesus' teachings is one thing. Saying "...countries should impose more control over their economies" is another.

I thought you were going to bow out of this thread. You are turning this place into a cougarboard suburb.

Thank you for bringing this up. It's a personal pet peeve - exactly 100% of sacrament meeting speakers who reference the parable of the talents fail to grasp the fact that a talent was a monetary measurement.

My pet peeve is when selfish people go to church and become irritated at the notion that wealth, at the very best is an extreme test and more likely a sin. There is nothing built in to Christianity that squares with this hyper-capitalism bullshit. Ayn Rand is for Atheists and Satanists not Christians.

[cowboy]

I thought you were going to bow out of this thread. You are turning this place into a cougarboard suburb.

SandYFan has a right to his opinion. Play nice.

My pet peeve is when selfish people go to church and become irritated at the notion that wealth, at the very best is an extreme test and more likely a sin. There is nothing built in to Christianity that squares with this hyper-capitalism bullshit. Ayn Rand is for Atheists and Satanists not Christians.

What is it about Christianity that doesn't square with capitalism? I'm not picking on you, because I hear this a lot, but I don't see it. Either there is something in the scriptures I don't see, or you and I have a different understanding of capitalism.

[ERCougar]

It's quite simple, actually. Those many Mormons you speak of understand that providing for the poor is a moral decision, while choosing capitalism is an economic one. Don't feel bad, though, you liberals get the two mixed up all the time.

You're being snarky here, but you highlight how liberals and conservatives often talk past each other on this issue. Liberals think that conservatives just simply don't care about the poor. I think that's probably true in some cases, but the good guys on both sides care very much about helping the poor. The interesting argument should be one of how to do it, not whether it should be done.