Spanish Fork Windmills

[KillerDog]

From what I understand (which isn't much - I haven't seen a biomass deal in a while) it's viable but only on a very small scale. It's essentially burning stuff to make the steam to turn the turbine, IIRC, which of course isn't as clean as wind but is cleaner than coal/gas, depending on your definition. It's okay for small scale operations - as in, if you're a lumber mill and you have a ton of byproduct, why not? - but it's not a long term large scale solution by any means. Still, in those small-scale applications, it may make sense and isn't as absolutely mind-boggling dumb as ethanol (except for the Brazilians).

I've heard of it referred to as a way to utilize animal fecal matter in energy generation. First you run it through a digester which makes the burnable part more burnable and takes out a liquid which can be used as fertilizer. It also captures the methane and liquifies it for use as a fuel. Then the remainder can be burned for energy.

[Pheidippides]

I've heard of it referred to as a way to utilize animal fecal matter in energy generation. First you run it through a digester which makes the burnable part more burnable and takes out a liquid which can be used as fertilizer. It also captures the methane and liquifies it for use as a fuel. Then the remainder can be burned for energy.

Well, it's not just fecal matter that is used. I've heard of wood byproducts, for example, being used. The concept is that the process is applicable to anything biological (hence the term biomass). But that's the general idea as I understand it, yes - although, again, of all the energy technologies out there, it's probably the one I know the least about.

[LA Ute]

I support nuclear, but it is a stopgap solution at best. We need to go fully renewable and hydrogen.

Hey, if nuclear is good enough for the French, it's good enough for the USA.

[RobinFinderson]

Well, it's not just fecal matter that is used. I've heard of wood byproducts, for example, being used. The concept is that the process is applicable to anything biological (hence the term biomass). But that's the general idea as I understand it, yes - although, again, of all the energy technologies out there, it's probably the one I know the least about.

One of the key concepts behind biomass is that it is supposed to be carbon neutral... the plants release the same amount of carbon that they sequestered in the first place. This isn't entirely true, because harvesting the biomass is never carbon neutral.

[Pheidippides]

One of the key concepts behind biomass is that it is supposed to be carbon neutral... the plants release the same amount of carbon that they sequestered in the first place. This isn't entirely true, because harvesting the biomass is never carbon neutral.

Right - but, from a carbon neutrality standpoint, it's still better than fossil fuels.

[SCcoug]

Here is an interesting alternative to the traditional windmill.

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.italianinnovation.it%2Fhtml%2Fmodules%2Farticle%2Fview.article.php%3F12265&lp=it_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

They're flying kites which can be much higher where the stronger wind is.
As you can imagine they make some big claims. It will be interesting to see how they do as they scale up.

http://www.kitegen.com/pdf/IEEECSM200712.pdf

A standard 2-MW wind turbine has a mean production of 4000 MWh/year. To attain a mean generation of 9 TWh/year, which corresponds to almost 1000-MW mean power, 2250 such towers are required, with a land usage of 300 km2 and an energy production cost of about 100–120 €/MWh. In comparison, the production cost from fossil sources (gas, oil) is about 60–70 €/MWh. Simulation results show that a KiteGen capable of generating the same mean energy can be realized using 60–70 airfoils of about 500 m2, rotating in a carousel configuration of 1500-m radius and flying up to 800 m. The resulting land usage is 8 km^2, and the energy production cost is estimated to be about 10–15 €/MWh.

[kccougar]

What do you know about biomass? I have heard a lot of recent talk about biomass and the value of biomass digesters recently but I've never seen such a thing. Is it a viable technology like geothermal or is it another silly item like ethanol?

There are several biomass digestors currently under construction in Idaho. They are being built on dairy farms - basically an 80'x150'x18' tank of fecal matter!

[Pheidippides]

Here is an interesting alternative to the traditional windmill.

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.italianinnovation.it%2Fhtml%2Fmodules%2Farticle%2Fview.article.php%3F12265&lp=it_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

They're flying kites which can be much higher where the stronger wind is.
As you can imagine they make some big claims. It will be interesting to see how they do as they scale up.

http://www.kitegen.com/pdf/IEEECSM200712.pdf

Yeah, most of us think this idea is crazy, but one guy I work with is pretty gung-ho on the idea, so I can't dismiss it entirely. We just don't make fun of him to his face.

[KillerDog]

There are several biomass digestors currently under construction in Idaho. They are being built on dairy farms - basically an 80'x150'x18' tank of fecal matter!

That's what I heard. I've heard Utah and Idaho are going to try and go into a biomass partnership to really get this technology off the ground.

[JohnnyLingo]

I support nuclear, but it is a stopgap solution at best. We need to go fully renewable and hydrogen.

What is fully renewable, exactly?

And what do you mean by hydrogen?

[RobinFinderson]

What is fully renewable, exactly?

And what do you mean by hydrogen?

Fully renewable means that we are tapping an essentially infinite energy source (everything is finite in geological time). There are essentially three renewable energy sources:

The Sun
The Earth
The Moon

The Sun:
Solar power, wind, hydro, and biomass are all renewable energy sources that draw their power directly from the sun.

The Earth:
This is geothermal power, which means drawing heat from the earth's core.

The Moon:
The moon's gravitational pull (and a bit of the sun's too) drive our planet's tidal system. The potential energy in our tides is huge, but difficult to harness.

When I talk about a Hydrogen future we are most likely talking about fuel cells. Extracting energy from hydrogen, whether through combustion or electrochemical conversion, emits zero CO2. The problem with hydrogen is that it takes a lot of energy to isolate and store.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Fully renewable means that we are tapping an essentially infinite energy source (everything is finite in geological time). There are essentially three renewable energy sources:

The Sun
The Earth
The Moon

The Sun:
Solar power, wind, hydro, and biomass are all renewable energy sources that draw their power directly from the sun.

The Earth:
This is geothermal power, which means drawing heat from the earth's core.

The Moon:
The moon's gravitational pull (and a bit of the sun's too) drive our planet's tidal system. The potential energy in our tides is huge, but difficult to harness.

When I talk about a Hydrogen future we are most likely talking about fuel cells. Extracting energy from hydrogen, whether through combustion or electrochemical conversion, emits zero CO2. The problem with hydrogen is that it takes a lot of energy to isolate and store.

Robin, have you heard of ocean thermal energy recovery? Very cool idea.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.06/craven.html?pg=1&topic=craven&topic_set

[JohnnyLingo]

Fully renewable means that we are tapping an essentially infinite energy source (everything is finite in geological time). There are essentially three renewable energy sources:

The Sun
The Earth
The Moon

The Sun:
Solar power, wind, hydro, and biomass are all renewable energy sources that draw their power directly from the sun.

The Earth:
This is geothermal power, which means drawing heat from the earth's core.

The Moon:
The moon's gravitational pull (and a bit of the sun's too) drive our planet's tidal system. The potential energy in our tides is huge, but difficult to harness.

When I talk about a Hydrogen future we are most likely talking about fuel cells. Extracting energy from hydrogen, whether through combustion or electrochemical conversion, emits zero CO2. The problem with hydrogen is that it takes a lot of energy to isolate and store.

Okay, so are any of these ideas practical right now? I'm fine with researching this kind of thing, and believe if we can make renewable energy work as efficiently or moreso than carbon-based fuels, we'll be much, much better off.

But we're not there yet. And if we keep stonewalling nuclear energy because it's not perfect, we're just screwing ourselves. It is the best option currently available, and if we never find a way to make those alternatives work, we need to use it.

[The Wankster]

Okay, so are any of these ideas practical right now? I'm fine with researching this kind of thing, and believe if we can make renewable energy work as efficiently or moreso than carbon-based fuels, we'll be much, much better off.

But we're not there yet. And if we keep stonewalling nuclear energy because it's not perfect, we're just screwing ourselves. It is the best option currently available, and if we never find a way to make those alternatives work, we need to use it.

The problem with Nukes is the leftover spent, but not quite spent fuels.

Once they can find a way to ship this stuff to the Sun for it's final resting place, then Nukes will become the only form of energy to utilize. Until then it is a HUGE problem with obviously long term ramifications.

[JohnnyLingo]

The problem with Nukes is the leftover spent, but not quite spent fuels.

Once they can find a way to ship this stuff to the Sun for it's final resting place, then Nukes will become the only form of energy to utilize. Until then it is a HUGE problem with obviously long term ramifications.

And if we keep stonewalling nuclear energy because it's not perfect, we're just screwing ourselves. It is the best option currently available, and if we never find a way to make those alternatives work, we need to use it.

If you disagree, what is your solution?