The 2016 Presidential Election Trainwreck

[frank ryan]

I'm surprised Randall Paul went of Alex Jones' show. That guy is bizarro. Paul is really trying to get that 911 truth vote out.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

Al Sharpton is a fringe idiot. He hasnt been elected governor. He isn't a serious candidate for any office. Rick Perry has been elected governor of one of the largest electoral college states in the country (but not the largest....lol @ texas )

Barbara Boxer has been the Senator from the largest state in the country for over 20 years. Joe Biden is the vice president of the United States, let's unearth some of his quotes. Barack Obama sat in the congregation of a batshit crazy minister for over a decade. Elizabeth Warren pretended she had Native American ancestry, probably to gain entry as a professor at an Ivy League law school. Her academic credentials certainly don't seem to provide any rationale for her position at Harvard.

Rand Paul, just like his dad, isn't a serious candidate. Rick Perry is the Joe Biden of the GOP and is too stupid to know what he's talking about.

[Jeff Lebowski]

What exactly did Paul say that you believe is not accurate? It should be obvious from his full statement that he is very much in the pro-vaccinate camp. Of course, the boneheaded press seems to try to paint another picture.

See Northwestcoug post above.

LOL... I didn't cite a court settlement but a summary of court settlements with vaccine companies backed by the government (about 5000+ cases, the study highlights about 100 of them or so). In short, like Paul said there have been (court) cases that seem to link vaccine to mental disorder. This study seems back what Paul was saying. Or maybe it is all just a big scam the tort lawyers (including those that run the government) cooked up so they can keep their fellow "sharks" feed? I sort of think it is the latter myself. So I guess it is a good thing that Paul is not a lawyer but a MD.

Ted, Ted, Ted.... Court cases do not establish science. And they should NEVER be used by a medical doctor as evidence of ANYTHING. Except maybe greed.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

It's incredible how some of these GOP candidates step into this nonsense. The anti-vaccination thing isn't a right or left issue:

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/ar...sudans/380252/

You've got Utahns that are into witch doctor nonsense like scented oil, but then you've got the anti-genetically modified food idiots whose efforts cost lives -- and they don't come from the right.

[Jeff Lebowski]

It's incredible how some of these GOP candidates step into this nonsense. The anti-vaccination thing isn't a right or left issue:

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/ar...sudans/380252/

You've got Utahns that are into witch doctor nonsense like scented oil, but then you've got the anti-genetically modified food idiots whose efforts cost lives -- and they don't come from the right.

Yep. The anti-vaxers used to be more on the left, but it seems to be spreading to the nuts on both sides. Anti-GMO's are typically lefty. Anti-evolution and anti-climate change nuts are mostly right-wingers.

[USUC]

Barbara Boxer has been the Senator from the largest state in the country for over 20 years. Joe Biden is the vice president of the United States, let's unearth some of his quotes. Barack Obama sat in the congregation of a batshit crazy minister for over a decade. Elizabeth Warren pretended she had Native American ancestry, probably to gain entry as a professor at an Ivy League law school. Her academic credentials certainly don't seem to provide any rationale for her position at Harvard.

Rand Paul, just like his dad, isn't a serious candidate. Rick Perry is the Joe Biden of the GOP and is too stupid to know what he's talking about.

My impression of Obama and the Jeremiah Wright situation was that it just showed Obama was full of shit. He felt he needed to portray himself as a church goer to be elected. But it was obvious that he never really attended the church (or rarely attended). If he had, he would know the crap Wright was saying and would have avoided it on the campaign.

[Dwight Schr-ute]

Yep. The anti-vaxers used to be more on the left, but it seems to be spreading to the nuts on both sides. Anti-GMO's are typically lefty. Anti-evolution and anti-climate change nuts are mostly right-wingers.

And this.

If we need to vaccinate our kids today against diseases we'd wiped out in this country, there's one reason for it: Barack Obama and the Democrat Party and open borders, and that's something that nobody's talking about in this whole debate.

Rush Limbaugh

[Color Me Badd Fan]

And this.

I realize Limbaugh made a dumb statement here, but it's different than the Jenny McCarthy position which has been adopted by as many lefties as righties -- perhaps even more lefties. Limbaugh isn't saying that vaccinations cause autism.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I realize Limbaugh made a dumb statement here, but it's different than the Jenny McCarthy position which has been adopted by as many lefties as righties -- perhaps even more lefties. Limbaugh isn't saying that vaccinations cause autism.

Good point. Limbaugh is saying that those dirty Mexicans are spreading disease. But it turns out that the Mexicans vaccinate at a higher rate than we do.

http://www.vaccinationnews.org/Daily...xicoMore22.htm

"One of the main reasons there is no longer measles in the United States is because we no longer have measles in Latin America and the Caribbean," said Dr. Ciro de Quadros, the recently retired director of immunizations for the Pan American Health Organization. Mexico, he said, has done a "remarkable" job of vaccinating its children in the past decade.

[fusnik]

I realize Limbaugh made a dumb statement here, but it's different than the Jenny McCarthy position which has been adopted by as many lefties as righties -- perhaps even more lefties. Limbaugh isn't saying that vaccinations cause autism.

Yeah he's just being racist.

[Uncle Ted]

See Northwestcoug post above.

Yeah, I have already addressed NWC's arguments.

Ted, Ted, Ted.... Court cases do not establish science. And they should NEVER be used by a medical doctor as evidence of ANYTHING. Except maybe greed.

Paul stated he is very much pro-vaccinate and believes that vaccines saves lives. He is not questioning the science of vaccines. Of course, there have been a lot of law suits that did establish with some sort of evidence that vaccines did do some harm (in some very rare cases) with an enough evidence to pay out over $2.5 billion in settlements of tax payer's money. Paul is simply stating the facts when he said he has heard of cases of vaccine related harm to individuals. It doesn't take much effort to find lots of cases of this nature with large settlements. So are you saying the government just threw large amounts money at anyone that made a bad vaccine claim even without establishing any sort of case or a case not based on any fact? If so, where do I go to get my share of this easy money?

The fact is the vaccine companies may have mixed up a bad batch now and then and have caused harm even though the science may be completely sound. Shit happens. It seems obvious that Paul has studied the possible side effects of vaccines and most likely knows more about the subject than most of all, if not all, of the other senators. If he had said that vaccines are completely safe for everyone then he would be lying. Instead he stated that he has heard of cases where shit did happened which is the truth. Would you be happy if Paul just lied to you instead?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Yeah, I have already addressed NWC's arguments.

Paul stated he is very much pro-vaccinate and believes that vaccines saves lives. He is not questioning the science of vaccines. Of course, there have been a lot of law suits that did establish with some sort of evidence that vaccines did do some harm (in some very rare cases) with an enough evidence to pay out over $2.5 billion in settlements of tax payer's money. Paul is simply stating the facts when he said he has heard of cases of vaccine related harm to individuals. It doesn't take much effort to find lots of cases of this nature with large settlements. So are you saying the government just threw large amounts money at anyone that made a bad vaccine claim even without establishing any sort of case or a case not based on any fact? If so, where do I go to get my share of this easy money?

Can one of you lawyers on the board please give Ted a quick update on Torts 101?

The fact is the vaccine companies may have mixed up a bad batch now and then and have caused harm even though the science may be completely sound. Shit happens. It seems obvious that Paul has studied the possible side effects of vaccines and most likely knows more about the subject than most of all, if not all, of the other senators. If he had said that vaccines are completely safe for everyone then he would be lying. Instead he stated that he has heard of cases where shit did happened which is the truth. Would you be happy if Paul just lied to you instead?

Paul just lied to all of us. The fact of the matter is that vaccines are far less risky than the alternatives. He should have made that case.

[Northwestcoug]

The fact is the vaccine companies may have mixed up a bad batch now and then and have caused harm even though the science may be completely sound. Shit happens. It seems obvious that Paul has studied the possible side effects of vaccines and most likely knows more about the subject than most of all, if not all, of the other senators. If he had said that vaccines are completely safe for everyone then he would be lying. Instead he stated that he has heard of cases where shit did happened which is the truth. Would you be happy if Paul just lied to you instead?

No one is faulting Paul for stating the obvious, that vaccines have side effects. They are rightly chastising him for irresponsibly giving credence to the completely baseless connection between autism and vaccination, just to further his libertarian causes. To do this in today's anti-vaccination environment is unethical. He knows there is no proof for what he calls 'mental disorders' caused by vaccines; that's why he cites anecdotal stories. Worse, if he truly believes there is a connection, then he is a piss poor physician.

For the record, vaccines are not 100% safe. Mild side effects are relatively common, though are completely outweighed by the benefits. And yes, there are known serious side effects. Very rare cases of polio occurred with the live vaccine, back when it was more routine. Most vaccines carry a warning label of extremely rare associations with serious allergic reactions. Most of the serious presumptive side effects are so rare that it is difficult, if not impossible, to be definitive about causality. The CDC is very upfront about these side effects.

[Uncle Ted]

Can one of you lawyers on the board please give Ted a quick update on Torts 101?



Paul just lied to all of us. The fact of the matter is that vaccines are far less risky than the alternatives. He should have made that case.

Paul didn't lie to us. He knows that vaccines are far less risky otherwise he wouldn't have vaccinated his own kids. He also knows there are risks and questions why the CDC recommends that you give a baby a massive cocktail of vaccines all at once including for vaccines for diseases a baby would not be at risk for. That seems like a very reasonable question to ask.

Maybe you like presidential candidates that do lie to us. e.g. The last time I checked Gitmo is still open.

[Uncle Ted]

No one is faulting Paul for stating the obvious, that vaccines have side effects. They are rightly chastising him for irresponsibly giving credence to the completely baseless connection between autism and vaccination, just to further his libertarian causes. To do this in today's anti-vaccination environment is unethical. He knows there is no proof for what he calls 'mental disorders' caused by vaccines; that's why he cites anecdotal stories. Worse, if he truly believes there is a connection, then he is a piss poor physician.

For the record, vaccines are not 100% safe. Mild side effects are relatively common, though are completely outweighed by the benefits. And yes, there are known serious side effects. Very rare cases of polio occurred with the live vaccine, back when it was more routine. Most vaccines carry a warning label of extremely rare associations with serious allergic reactions. Most of the serious presumptive side effects are so rare that it is difficult, if not impossible, to be definitive about causality. The CDC is very upfront about these side effects.

Paul said he has heard of cases and questions the CDC's recommendations about how vaccines should be given. He is still very much in the pro-vaccine camp. The facts are, however:

(1) There has been lots of cases that the court has ruled that vaccines may have been responsible for brain injury. Or actually responsible enough to award large amounts of money. These seem to be well documented: http://digitalcommons.pace.edu/pelr/vol28/iss2/6/ Apparently there was enough proof to award billions of dollars in damages. It seems that you and JL think courts award money based on poor bullshit and not any actual proof. Of course, I would have to agree that some cases are awarded on BS but there are lot of examples here. If all of these cases were awarded on bullshit arguments then I have lost all my faith in lawyers and the courts to get anything right.

(2) A significant number of pediatricians and pediatric specialists also question the CDC's recommendations as well: http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperIn...2#.VNIfBFr5m-L In fact, 21% of the pediatric specialists said they would deviate from the CDC guidelines. Paul gave a very reasonable argument for why someone may want to deviate from the government's guidelines, IMO.

Did Paul say that vaccines are bad? No.

Did Paul say there is no way in hell he would vaccine his kids? No. In fact, he vaccinated his kids.

Did Paul say vaccines cause more harm than good? No.

Did Paul say he believes there is a solid connection between vaccines and mental disorders? No, he said he heard of some cases (Read the document in #1 and you would have heard of some cases as well or otherwise you would be lying).