The 2016 Presidential Election Trainwreck

[Topper]

Kind of like how you rarely criticize the Democrats and only post negatively about Republicans. Hmmm. Yeah - there's probably a pattern there for both of us.



Yeah - I agree on the partisanship issue. As long as both sides are more interested in pointing fingers and "horriblizing" the other side (that's a clinical term I learned in school), we're stuck with what we've got. Both sides worried about making sure everyone knows how bad the other guy is instead of what anyone is going to do about it.

Interestingly enough - I have a coworker who is a delegate for the Democrats. He was complaining about how he felt like their convention a couple of Saturdays ago was going to be focused on the "imaginary schism" between Dems - which he says doesn't really exist. Then he lamented on how the Republicans are so good at closing ranks and protecting themselves (Reagan's 11th commandment), and how he wished the Democrats would do better at it.

In a world where the populous wanted Bernie (and this guy is a Bernie guy) and the party pushed Hillary - I don't know how you say there is no schism in the party. They've got issues, for sure. I haven't had a chance to talk to him since the convention - but I'm curious how it went.



Yeah. Super sad. I'm not getting invited to any potlucks from EITHER side.

There is no need for commentary on Trump, his performance is a walking, living breathing satire on US political life. Anything stated about Trump will detract from the absurdity of the man himself.

[Goatnapper'96]

What do you expect a party to do in an era of partisanship?

In an era of partisanship, you don't merge with the enemy, you close ranks and keep the tribe together no matter how ugly the titular head is. The idea of consensus and working together is an idea from the past. It is not likely to re-emerge until a crisis arises that requires bi-partisanship. I am unable to imagine what that might be, because I see no end to the rabid partisanship, especially of the Democratic party, with a very aged leadership. The younger leadership of the GOP means there is wiggle room supposedly but they won't negotiate with the aged Dems. But nobody closes ranks like the Dems.

Right now, the sole message of the Democratic Party is: "We hate Trump", and "We hate Republicans." You might retort "the GOP started it." Which is no retort at all.

The voters are left with searching for a message, which the GOP sometimes meekly gets out, and two partisan groups declaring their hate and disrespect for the other group. I recommend that Pelosi be the Democrats' nominee for 2020 with John Conyers as her running mate. A Pelosi-Conyers is a winning ticket! Come on Dems, you can do it!

Until Trump won there was occasional crumbs of magnanimity from Lefties patting Conservatives on the back for taking a stand against Trump as they huffawed about Madame President. Then we discovered the reality that as screwed up as Trump and the Republicans are the Democrat brand is even worse. I have seen no crumbs of magnanimity since then - but looosers got nobody!

Deep down we all know that Justice Kennedy is colluding with Trump and McConnell to drop his retirement at a crucial point this week to provide the Republican Senators cover as they willingly vote to kill people and likely will do so with vitriolic and hyperbolic rhetoric!

WE ARE DOOMED!

[Topper]

Until Trump won there was occasional crumbs of magnanimity from Lefties patting Conservatives on the back for taking a stand against Trump as they huffawed about Madame President. Then we discovered the reality that as screwed up as Trump and the Republicans are the Democrat brand is even worse. I have seen no crumbs of magnanimity since then - but looosers got nobody!

Deep down we all know that Justice Kennedy is colluding with Trump and McConnell to drop his retirement at a crucial point this week to provide the Republican Senators cover as they willingly vote to kill people and likely will do so with vitriolic and hyperbolic rhetoric!

WE ARE DOOMED!

You have seen through the thinly-veiled effort of the GOP to commit mass murder through health insurance reform. And the Russkies are in on it too!

[Goatnapper'96]

Interestingly enough - I have a coworker who is a delegate for the Democrats. He was complaining about how he felt like their convention a couple of Saturdays ago was going to be focused on the "imaginary schism" between Dems - which he says doesn't really exist. Then he lamented on how the Republicans are so good at closing ranks and protecting themselves (Reagan's 11th commandment), and how he wished the Democrats would do better at it.

In a world where the populous wanted Bernie (and this guy is a Bernie guy) and the party pushed Hillary - I don't know how you say there is no schism in the party. They've got issues, for sure. I haven't had a chance to talk to him since the convention - but I'm curious how it went.

As am I because it appears to me that the Democrats have a challenge as they seek to reconcile their selling their soul to whatever special interest/protected group they could with their need to win back working class whites. The Obama Coalition with all of its microtargeting requires a politician as capable as Obama in keeping enough white people on board.

Whatever happened to CaliCoug?

[Eddie]

There is no need for commentary on Trump, his performance is a walking, living breathing satire on US political life. Anything stated about Trump will detract from the absurdity of the man himself.

Whenever I think about the Russians "helping" Trump in the election, I envision their motivation as being much more in line with the older couple in What About Bob. You know - they are the one's that Dr. Leo Marvin came in from the big city and bought their dream home before they could close on it with his fist full of dollars.

So they give Bob all the information he needs to find Dr. Marvin and spoil his vacation, while they watch from a distance and laugh at the hilarity.

I imagine Putin in his version of the little fishing dingy sitting on the lake out just watching the chaos and laughing to himself.

[frank ryan]

Kind of like how you rarely criticize the Democrats and only post negatively about Republicans. Hmmm. Yeah - there's probably a pattern there for both of us.



Yeah - I agree on the partisanship issue. As long as both sides are more interested in pointing fingers and "horriblizing" the other side (that's a clinical term I learned in school), we're stuck with what we've got. Both sides worried about making sure everyone knows how bad the other guy is instead of what anyone is going to do about it.

Interestingly enough - I have a coworker who is a delegate for the Democrats. He was complaining about how he felt like their convention a couple of Saturdays ago was going to be focused on the "imaginary schism" between Dems - which he says doesn't really exist. Then he lamented on how the Republicans are so good at closing ranks and protecting themselves (Reagan's 11th commandment), and how he wished the Democrats would do better at it.

In a world where the populous wanted Bernie (and this guy is a Bernie guy) and the party pushed Hillary - I don't know how you say there is no schism in the party. They've got issues, for sure. I haven't had a chance to talk to him since the convention - but I'm curious how it went.



Yeah. Super sad. I'm not getting invited to any potlucks from EITHER side.

I've criticized Democrats multiple times, including Obama's passiveness and weakness with regard to foreign policy, in particular Russia. Trump is in power, and the GOP is on power so they should be the focal point of political criticism.

I also try to be informed about my criticisms. Some people form their opinions from tweets and talk radio. I try to watch substantial portions of the open congressional hearings.

[frank ryan]

As am I because it appears to me that the Democrats have a challenge as they seek to reconcile their selling their soul to whatever special interest/protected group they could with their need to win back working class whites. The Obama Coalition with all of its microtargeting requires a politician as capable as Obama in keeping enough white people on board.

Whatever happened to CaliCoug?

good thing republican health, education and environmental policies haven't been giant gifts to special interests.

[Goatnapper'96]

good thing republican health, education and environmental policies haven't been giant gifts to special interests.

The point, in my perspective, is the Democrats/left have gone so far with the identity politics that they have alienated their original core. Now certainly the loss of manufacturing jobs and the demise of union organizing capacity is likely as much a culprit as the changing Democratic brand - but I am still interested in how the Democrats reconcile their situation. Ted and I will keep you aware how they are screwing it up!

[Topper]

The point, in my perspective, is the Democrats/left have gone so far with the identity politics that they have alienated their original core. Now certainly the loss of manufacturing jobs and the demise of union organizing capacity is likely as much a culprit as the changing Democratic brand - but I am still interested in how the Democrats reconcile their situation. Ted and I will keep you aware how they are screwing it up!

The Democratic Brand is blind, due to the age of its leaders. Pelosi and kind are average age of 77. The GOP has an average of 49 for its leadership. The GOP learned after 2008 and the Dems need to learn the same lesson. Let's hope they learn in a decade or so. I so much enjoy seeing Pelosi at the helm of the Democratic Party.

[Eddie]

Had a chat today with my coworker about the convention.

He indicated that they elected a new party leader who is "much MUCH more progressive."

He basically says that the Clinton's destroyed the Democrat party by being neo-conservatives themselves and turning it into a party that follows. So people don't see a difference or choice between one party and the other. (Remember, this is from a Utah perspective).

He's excited about new younger and more progressive leadership in Utah really setting the Democrats apart as having new ideas and proposing new policies. It will be interesting, to be sure. No sure I see a more progressive/liberal democratic party being super successful in Utah.

[Sleeping in EQ]

I doubt Nancy Pelosi will run in 2020, and if she does, she won't get the nomination. She will be too old and, while a shrewd politician, she lacks a vital skill for a national election--public speaking.

[Topper]

I doubt Nancy Pelosi will run in 2020, and if she does, she won't get the nomination. She will be too old and, while a shrewd politician, she lacks a vital skill for a national election--public speaking.

You could be her campaign manager. A Pelosi-Conyers ticket would be so dynamic. The inability to speak publicly didn't stop Trump.

[BlueK]

The problem with moving the target is that you start to look like Trump yourself.

Collusion or meddling, who cares?

Next it's wiretapping versus surveillance. There's no real difference, right?

I've said all along that I'd be shocked and surprised if the Russians didn't attempt to interfere, and that I'd be shocked if this were the first time, too.

But there is a huge difference between saying that they tried to interfere, and saying that Trump's campaign worked with them to try to influence the election.

I also think that there is a problem with the Democrat's current approach of using the possible Russian collusion angle to delegitimize the presidency. Just like doing away with the filibuster - this is the kind of thing that comes back to bite you in the ass. Because I guarantee you that other countries have tried to influence our elections in the past, and will in the future. And the candidate that they find to be most friendly is going to swing from one party to the next.

Should Russian (and any other country's involvement in US elections) be investigated? Hell yes! Do we respond when we find out they're doing it? Hell yes! Are there consequences if a campaign actually DOES collude? Hell yes!

But the rabid response to Trump right now isn't doing us any favors as a country. Ya'll are starting to look as irrational as he is.

Go ahead and call me a Trump apologist. I've never voted for the man and I won't in the future. But I'm not going to start drinking the anti kool aid either. I've got no problem criticizing him. I do have a problem with the ridiculousness of some of this.

I was being ultra sarcastic and cynical about how US politics has gotten so bad that to those cheering for the same team it doesn't matter what a politician does as long as he has the right letter next to his name.

But I also don't think we can just believe at face value that Trump's people repeatedly having secret meetings with Russian spies and then lying about it on federal disclosure forms is not worthy of some investigation. This stuff has already been proven. What hasn't is the why they were doing it and have tried so hard to keep it from coming to light.

Why did Jared Kushner meet with a Russian banker who has close ties to Putin and is from a bank under current sanctions? What kind of business was he conducting there? Why did he not disclose that meeting on his federal forms required to fill out when applying for a security clearance? Same for Flynn with his meetings with Russians, same with Jeff Sessions (who also lied to Congress about it), plus a couple of others in the campaign.

When Kushner met with the Russian "ambassador" why did he enter Trump tower through a secret entrance while countless other celebrities and foreign dignitaries go in through the front door in public view?

Michael Flynn has made millions of dollars over the last several years through interesting business dealings with Russia and other somewhat shady countries, yet, when he had to fill out the federal forms he didn't mention a single foreign interaction.

If this is all completely innocent and has a good explanation, that's great. But it should be investigated.

[Shaka]

Had a chat today with my coworker about the convention.

He indicated that they elected a new party leader who is "much MUCH more progressive."

He basically says that the Clinton's destroyed the Democrat party by being neo-conservatives themselves and turning it into a party that follows. So people don't see a difference or choice between one party and the other. (Remember, this is from a Utah perspective).

He's excited about new younger and more progressive leadership in Utah really setting the Democrats apart as having new ideas and proposing new policies. It will be interesting, to be sure. No sure I see a more progressive/liberal democratic party being super successful in Utah.

Your coworker is dumb. Progressives will not gain much traction in Utah and probably will not grow outside of their established hotbeds. Frankly those guys are getting a bad rep because the moderates in their party as well as everyone to the right of them associate them with identity politics, the SJW movement, and all-around intolerance (if you don't agree with their opinions). If Trump gets re-elected it will be their fault.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Had a chat today with my coworker about the convention.

He indicated that they elected a new party leader who is "much MUCH more progressive."

He basically says that the Clinton's destroyed the Democrat party by being neo-conservatives themselves and turning it into a party that follows. So people don't see a difference or choice between one party and the other. (Remember, this is from a Utah perspective).

He's excited about new younger and more progressive leadership in Utah really setting the Democrats apart as having new ideas and proposing new policies. It will be interesting, to be sure. No sure I see a more progressive/liberal democratic party being super successful in Utah.

That's really funny.