Why I am supporting Obama

[PaloAltoCougar]

Horse shit.

What would be an appropriate level of tax?

[wuapinmon]

What would be an appropriate level of tax?

1. Forego my Social Security benefits. I do not plan on having anything from them when I retire. I don't mind paying the taxes so that little old widows without children wind up in group homes because they can't afford to live. Folks with money should forego theirs too. Social Security needs a means test anyway you look at it. Austerity should hit everyone. I would be willing to do this until age 60, so 23 years from now.

2. Increase medicaid taxes by 5% so that children under 18 can have basic medical care. No able-bodied adult should get free medical care from the government, myself included. I will pay my medicaid taxes, happily, if it means that children are looked after. Families need to plan to care for their elderly on their own, and not depend on the federal government to do it. It sucks, I know, but something's got to give.

3. Raise income taxes by 5%. I can give a little more, provided the increased revenue goes into repurchasing 30 year T-bills to reduce the National Debt.

4. Raise the federal gasoline tax by $.25 a gallon for the express purpose of eliminating the national debt. We gripe and complain about it, but for what it does, gasoline is CHEAP. The need for efficiency is the mother of efficiency inventions.

5. Pay a $25 tax with each new television purchase to support the Public Broadcasting system. I'll also gladly pay 25 cents a month on my cable bill to support the Ad-Council. I have lived in other countries, and we've got it so good, but we don't pay enough in taxes to cover all the good we've got. Social Security needs to die for all but the most poor. Medicare, especially Plan B, needs the axe too. If your mom gets sick, then you pay for it out of pocket. Just because there are $60k hip replacements doesn't mean that you get one just because Medicare will cover it. That's borrowed money that young people will have to pay back for you someday.

So, I ask you all, what are you willing to give up? What sacred cows in the federal budget need trimming. And don't give me the "I'm not paying anything else until spending is under control" bullshit. Between servicing the debt, defense, Social Security, and Medicare, the money's spent yall. So, which cow gets made into sacred ground beef?

[RobinFinderson]

Quick note before I check out again today.... went back and checked my effective tax rate, and it was way less than 20%. My bad.

[Donuthole]

Quick note before I check out again today.... went back and checked my effective tax rate, and it was way less than 20%. My bad.

Good thing you're not a math teacher.

[Omaha 680]

1. Forego my Social Security benefits. I do not plan on having anything from them when I retire. I don't mind paying the taxes so that little old widows without children wind up in group homes because they can't afford to live. Folks with money should forego theirs too. Social Security needs a means test anyway you look at it. Austerity should hit everyone. I would be willing to do this until age 60, so 23 years from now.

2. Increase medicaid taxes by 5% so that children under 18 can have basic medical care. No able-bodied adult should get free medical care from the government, myself included. I will pay my medicaid taxes, happily, if it means that children are looked after. Families need to plan to care for their elderly on their own, and not depend on the federal government to do it. It sucks, I know, but something's got to give.

3. Raise income taxes by 5%. I can give a little more, provided the increased revenue goes into repurchasing 30 year T-bills to reduce the National Debt.

4. Raise the federal gasoline tax by $.25 a gallon for the express purpose of eliminating the national debt. We gripe and complain about it, but for what it does, gasoline is CHEAP. The need for efficiency is the mother of efficiency inventions.

5. Pay a $25 tax with each new television purchase to support the Public Broadcasting system. I'll also gladly pay 25 cents a month on my cable bill to support the Ad-Council. I have lived in other countries, and we've got it so good, but we don't pay enough in taxes to cover all the good we've got. Social Security needs to die for all but the most poor. Medicare, especially Plan B, needs the axe too. If your mom gets sick, then you pay for it out of pocket. Just because there are $60k hip replacements doesn't mean that you get one just because Medicare will cover it. That's borrowed money that young people will have to pay back for you someday.

So, I ask you all, what are you willing to give up? What sacred cows in the federal budget need trimming. And don't give me the "I'm not paying anything else until spending is under control" bullshit. Between servicing the debt, defense, Social Security, and Medicare, the money's spent yall. So, which cow gets made into sacred ground beef?

I could get on board with some of these ideas, but even if you were able to do all that, it will not come close to closing even eliminating the deficit, let alone paying down the debt.

A quarter/gallon gas tax would maybe net $40 billion a year if we're lucky. We're taking in about $1.1 Trillion in income tax right now, so say a 5% increase would bring in an extra $55 billion (I realize that reality won't work out that way but this is just for discussion). Payroll taxes are bringing in about $800 billion, so say a 5% increase brings in an extra $40 billion (again, very simplified). So all your revenue generating proposals bring in an additional $135 billion. And this is assuming there won't be less additional revenue than estimated due to the effects of the tax increases rippling through the economy.

So $135 billion extra dollars to attack annual deficits of over a trillion dollars for decades and annual interest payments on the debt of $225 billion and rising fast. I know you make some proposals about means testing for Social Security (which will probably happen) and axing medicare. But even if that was possible it probably won't be enough. We could eliminate the department of defense and all social security payments entirely and it would just BARELY eliminate the annual budget deficit.

The amount of revenue generation that would be needed to get us out of this mess without massive structural changes to entitlements would change the entire makeup of our economy permanently.

[Goatnapper'96]

So, I ask you all, what are you willing to give up? What sacred cows in the federal budget need trimming. And don't give me the "I'm not paying anything else until spending is under control" bullshit. Between servicing the debt, defense, Social Security, and Medicare, the money's spent yall. So, which cow gets made into sacred ground beef?

I really don't think that mentality is bullshit. I know you are a university professor/wanker academic and run around barechested screaming, likely in a high pitched voice for a man but what the hell you keep high shrilled company, "ignorance is my enemy!" But in reality, it doesn't take a genius or policy wonk to recognize that when the nation runs a $1.5 trillion deficit while generating $3 trillion that spending has to be cut, like a lot. To many of us familiar with the recent tax increases with promised spending cuts we believe there should be a significant commitment to cut spending before we start deciding to take more money. I just heard our President say that if Millionaires pay their fair share he will invest that money in veterans, infrastructure, teachers unions and potentially education. See, this is a problem to me. We don't get enough to cover our spending now and this guy wants '71 and Pac to pay more just so he can spend more. You see I think there are liberals who cannot abide inequality and they would rather seek to redistribute whatever money they can to eliminate inequality instead of being good fiscal stewards. Hence, since I think there are legitimate reasons to not trust that spending will be cut until after it is in fact cut, why give these folks more of my money?

Now you know I agree with your argument that it is going to take more government revenue to fix the issues. Most of the fiscal conservatives on this venue have also said as much, I am just disputing your labeling the argument that "let us not talk about tax increases until we talk about spending reductions" as horseshit. This history of this country is far more tax increase than spending decrease so one has a legitimate reason to be wary about something happening that doesn't happen very frequently.

[RobinFinderson]

Good thing you're not a math teacher.

Hey now, I still have a few months before it is official (fingers crossed).

[Goatnapper'96]

Quick note before I check out again today.... went back and checked my effective tax rate, and it was way less than 20%. My bad.

Was your tax rate "fair?"

[Indy Coug]

So, I ask you all, what are you willing to give up? What sacred cows in the federal budget need trimming. And don't give me the "I'm not paying anything else until spending is under control" bullshit. Between servicing the debt, defense, Social Security, and Medicare, the money's spent yall. So, which cow gets made into sacred ground beef?

It all needs to be cut down. All of it. The solution is on the expense side, not the revenue side.

Government spending growth for decades has consistently outpaced GDP growth. There was a time that imbalance could be absorbed to a degree and ignored as a result. That time has come to an end. The turnip is running out of blood.

[Uncle Ted]

None of us pay enough in taxes.

No, I pay enough taxes so speak for yourself.

You can always donate more to pay down the public debt if you don't think you pay enough.

[Goatnapper'96]

I could get on board with some of these ideas, but even if you were able to do all that, it will not come close to closing even eliminating the deficit, let alone paying down the debt.

A quarter/gallon gas tax would maybe net $40 billion a year if we're lucky. We're taking in about $1.1 Trillion in income tax right now, so say a 5% increase would bring in an extra $55 billion (I realize that reality won't work out that way but this is just for discussion). Payroll taxes are bringing in about $800 billion, so say a 5% increase brings in an extra $40 billion (again, very simplified). So all your revenue generating proposals bring in an additional $135 billion. And this is assuming there won't be less additional revenue than estimated due to the effects of the tax increases rippling through the economy.

So $135 billion extra dollars to attack annual deficits of over a trillion dollars for decades and annual interest payments on the debt of $225 billion and rising fast. I know you make some proposals about means testing for Social Security (which will probably happen) and axing medicare. But even if that was possible it probably won't be enough. We could eliminate the department of defense and all social security payments entirely and it would just BARELY eliminate the annual budget deficit.

The amount of revenue generation that would be needed to get us out of this mess without massive structural changes to entitlements would change the entire makeup of our economy permanently.

There is a reason that Obama only talks about the rich paying their fair share. If we collected from the rich the tax rates he wants, the deficits would still be in excess of $1 trillion. The second the President would have an adult conversation about the deficit size and where the revenues are available to pay for that deficit there are going to be many cheeks in Walmart drawers getting tight- it will go beyond just the $250k earning Fred Meyer drawers of today. If even after milking the rich America started collecting enough money to pay for its outflows, much of the middle class would annhilate the poor at the polls.

[Indy Coug]

No, I pay enough taxes so speak for yourself.

You can always donate more to pay down the public debt if you don't think you pay enough.

Is that contribution tax deductible?

[PaloAltoCougar]

Thanks for taking the time to write that up, wuap. For now, I'll just say that I wish the Obama Administration had devoted half the time it spent pushing through Obamacare to advocating for the Simpson Bowles plan.

[Uncle Ted]

There was a real good article in real clear politics that basically called Obama's "buffet rule" campaign nothing but political bull crap. I don't think they are a right wing publication either.

Yes, it is pure political bullshit. The amount of revenue it would raise isn't that much (some projections as low as $5B/yr). We would have saved more with tort reform in Obamacare but Harry didn't think it was enough to worry about. It would, most likely, have an effect on muni's, IMO. Why would the ultra rich have an incentive to invest in tax free muni's if the income is taxed at 30%. The ultra rich would move their money into higher yielding investments and muni rates would most likely go up. Then the middle class would still be paying more taxes because it now cost more for schools to raise bonds. Either that or they will fire a good number of the teachers because the school district can't afford their pensions.

Edit: For a guy that is wants the rich to pay more I have to scratch my head on why he is fighting with the government about the back taxes he owes...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_941099.html

http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/b...9/01/id/409520

[Goatnapper'96]

Thanks for taking the time to write that up, wuap. For now, I'll just say that I wish the Obama Administration had devoted half the time it spent pushing through Obamacare to advocating for the Simpson Bowles plan.

I don't think he really understood the gravity of the fiscal situation while he was campaigning. Once he realized that America has a very uncomfortable choice to make concerning our deficits which is either significantly increase taxes on all or significantly cut social spending, he decided to nobly be a unique politician and ignore the issue and punt it off to the next fella. He believes too much in the social spending to cut and wants to be elected too much to recommend a tax increase on all. In his favor they are making steps to get Pentagon spending to a level our nation can afford - Liberals are usually better at that than Conservatives.