Trayvon Martin

[smokymountainrain]

I can be honest and say that I would feel differently if it could be proven that that was in Zimmerman's head when Zimmerman first saw Martin. But that can't be proven and is merely speculation, so there's no reason to consider it.

That's fair. Since it can't be proven, there is no reason for the courts to consider it.

But since I'd bet the farm Zimmerman did take that into consideration, in my own mind, it will be a shame if Zimmerman doesn't spend some time behind bars.

[Indy Coug]

What does gun safety in the home have to do with the GZ TM discussion?

What does you having a gun in your home have to do with the GZ TM discussion?

[myboynoah]

I just don't think Zimmerman was in danger of losing his life. I don't doubt that he was getting beat up by Martin, but his injuries weren't significant and people had already called the police. Had he not had the gun, both Martin and Zimmerman would still be alive today. I understand he might have thought he was in danger of losing his life, but that was an over-reaction on his part.

My point is that Zimmerman introduced a gun into the situation and then used it to kill another human being when he didn't need to, no matter what he thought. To me that screams for some kind of justice. Probably not 2nd degree murder, but some lesser determination. If we're going to allow people to carry guns around, they need to be willing to take some responsibility for their actions if they use those guns.

[imanihonjin]

Thank you. This is why you and I will never agree on this. I do fault him for that.

Why....what is wrong with feeling more secure about dealing with a problem?

[imanihonjin]

What does you having a gun in your home have to do with the GZ TM discussion?

If you want to contribute the discussion, feel free. I am not going to chase you down your rabbit hole.

[Indy Coug]

If you want to contribute the discussion, feel free. I am not going to chase you down your rabbit hole.

LOL!!!! You've been the one pursuing this, not me.

[Flystripper]

I just don't think Zimmerman was in danger of losing his life. I don't doubt that he was getting beat up by Martin, but his injuries weren't significant and people had already called the police. Had he not had the gun, both Martin and Zimmerman would still be alive today. I understand he might have thought he was in danger of losing his life, but that was an over-reaction on his part.

My point is that Zimmerman introduced a gun into the situation and then used it to kill another human being when he didn't need to, no matter what he thought. To me that screams for some kind of justice. Probably not 2nd degree murder, but some lesser determination. If we're going to allow people to carry guns around, they need to be willing to take some responsibility for their actions if they use those guns.

Yeah. This is pretty close to how I feel about it at this point.

[imanihonjin]

I just don't think Zimmerman was in danger of losing his life. I don't doubt that he was getting beat up by Martin, but his injuries weren't significant and people had already called the police. Had he not had the gun, both Martin and Zimmerman would still be alive today. I understand he might have thought he was in danger of losing his life, but that was an over-reaction on his part.

My point is that Zimmerman introduced a gun into the situation and then used it to kill another human being when he didn't need to, no matter what he thought. To me that screams for some kind of justice. Probably not 2nd degree murder, but some lesser determination. If we're going to allow people to carry guns around, they need to be willing to take some responsibility for their actions if they use those guns.

So you wouldn't fear for your life if you were being pummeled by a guy who just told you that you were going to die tonight? You may not have done so, but the standard for a criminal prosecution is whether it was reasonable for someone to believe their life was in danger or that they were in danger of grave bodily injury. Having your head smacked on the pavement and having a broken nose with the man who just told you that were going to die sitting on top of you, I think it would be tough to argue that it is unreasonable for someone to believe they were in jeopardy of grave bodily injury or death.

[smokymountainrain]

Why....what is wrong with feeling more secure about dealing with a problem?

There was no problem. Zimmerman decided there was a potential problem in regard to a kid who was doing nothing wrong at the time.

[SoCalCoug]

So you wouldn't fear for your life if you were being pummeled by a guy who just told you that you were going to die tonight? You may not have done so, but the standard for a criminal prosecution is whether it was reasonable for someone to believe their life was in danger or that they were in danger of grave bodily injury. Having your head smacked on the pavement and having a broken nose with the man who just told you that were going to die sitting on top of you, I think it would be tough to argue that it is unreasonable for someone to believe they were in jeopardy of grave bodily injury or death.

Here's the problem. Your scenario is not consistent with the evidence.

1. Zimmerman outweighed the 156-lb. Martin by 100 or more pounds.
2. Zimmerman had been taking grappling/boxing training.
3. The injury on the back of Zimmerman's head was caused by something hard with a sharp edge (i.e., probably a sprinkler box), not having his head smacked on the pavement.
4. The alleged (no clear evidence that it had actually been broken) broken nose is unlikely to have been caused by Martin's fist (as alleged), as Martin's hands were injury and blood-free.

With Zimmerman's statements to the police about what happened being inconsistent with physical evidence, there is good reason to doubt anything he has said, or any claims by his defense team, as his credibility is damaged. Since there is no other evidence that Trayvon told him (allegedly) that he was going to die, and since Zimmerman apparently has not been entirely truthful in his statements to the police, there is very good cause to believe he did not reasonably believe his life was in danger.

Again, he was allegedly attacked by a kid who wasn't much more than half his weight. And he had a gun. Seriously? Zimmerman was afraid for his life?

Plus the fact he was following this "punk" after being told not to by the police.

Maybe not second degree murder, but manslaughter and other lesser included offenses are definitely in play.

By the way, here's a concrete example of the media reports of the testimony being a bit inaccurate:

The defense's gunshot expert was asked by the defense attorney if the physical evidence "was consistent with" the defense's description of what was happening when the gun went off (Trayvon on top of Zimmerman). He said yes. A little later, he admitted that it was also "consistent with" the prosecution's argument - that Trayvon was pulling away when he was shot. However, the only media reports I saw of this testimony said that the expert said the evidence "confirmed" the defense's story. This is also the same guy, I believe, who said the injury on the back of Zimmerman's head was caused by something hard with a sharp edge.

[Bo Diddley]

Can we agree that dispatch =/= police?

[smokymountainrain]

I wonder what constitutes fearing for ones life.

A guy knocks you down with a punch and before you can see whether not he's going to continue punching you, you pull out your gun and fire away? After all, he might have kept punching you if you hadn't shot him. Maybe he has to punch you five times and then you can say you feared for your life. Maybe he has to punch you three times and kick you once. Maybe you've both thrown some punches, but on your scorecard he's winning the round, so you can pull the trigger. Either way, since you are the one left living you get to tell your side of the story and the dead guy doesn't. Pretty good deal for the guy carrying a gun.

[imanihonjin]

There was no problem. Zimmerman decided there was a potential problem in regard to a kid who was doing nothing wrong at the time.

And Zimmerman did nothing "wrong" with keeping an eye on a potential threat. The real problem began with whomever instigated the physical altercation.

[SoCalCoug]

Can we agree that dispatch =/= police?

No. Aren't they part of the police department?

[smokymountainrain]

And Zimmerman did nothing "wrong" with keeping an eye on a potential threat. The real problem began with whomever instigated the physical altercation.

First off, he didn't just keep an eye on Zimmerman. He got out of his car and followed him. But you are right that in doing even that, Zimmerman did nothing wrong. My problem is, and you must know this by now, is that I feel Zimmerman would not have made the choice to leave his car and follow Martin if he were not carrying a gun. And because of that choice a kid is dead. That's all. And I have a huge problem with it. I'm not saying it's enough for Zimmerman to be convicted of murder.