Trayvon Martin

[Eddie]

...
What we know is this:

GZ followed a kid for no reason
GZ disobeyed a request by the police
GZ shot a kid
....

1) Define "no reason". There had been numerous break ins in the neighborhood. Zimmerman sees someone who seems somewhat suspicious (walking slowly in the rain, walking behind/between the town homes instead of on the front side where the majority of traffic travels). Now - it is true that Martin was proven to not be casing the joint for a future robbery. This doesn't mean there was no reason. As I've said before - I'd prefer that more neighbors get involved and ask questions versus fewer.

2) What was the request by the police that was disobeyed? First - according to recordings what the dispatcher says is "you don't have to do that". Not "don't do that". When someone says "you don't have to do that" to you - do you take that as a direct order to be obeyed? Second - from the information I've been able to gather, Zimmerman loses track of Martin about the same time that the dispatcher says "you don't have to do that" - and stops following him. If reported correctly - I'm not sure if it is clear that Zimmerman disobeyed a request by an officer - or if it is even clear that a request was made.

3) Yes, Zimmerman shot Martin.

Well - one out of three ain't bad.


Now - if you are correct in your assumption that once he got off the phone with dispatch Zimmerman either kept looking for Martin or saw him again and chased him down, then you might have something. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. You are correct in saying that whatever happened, it happened quickly. No more than 2-3 minutes between Zimmerman hanging up with the police and the police arriving to find a dead body and an injured Zimmerman.

[Indy Coug]

Is George Zimmerman gay? Just curious.

[Eddie]

Is George Zimmerman gay? Just curious.

Is he married? I mean...you know...to another guy?

[smokymountainrain]

Exactly, assuming GZ was not the instigator of a physical altercation, he did nothing wrong for simply carrying a weapon and following someone he thought was a threat.

In your opinion, what if you could prove the following thought went through GZ's head:

"I think this kid looks suspicious, since I have a gun on my hip, I'm going to go ahead and get out of my car and follow him for a bit - if he initiates an altercation with me, at least I have my gun to protect me" ?

Would you feel any different about the situation?

[imanihonjin]

If GZ feared for his life, enough to justify shooting someone, many people here have had experiences where there may have been justification for deadly force.

What we know is this:

GZ followed a kid for no reason
GZ disobeyed a request by the police
GZ shot a kid
In the space of 3 minutes GZ and TM had a confrontation that led to TMs death


GZ has said that in those three minutes he was jumped from the back left, wrestled with the kid, was repeatedly hit in the face, slammed down by his shoulders with his head hitting the concrete, choked, and felt that TM had seen his gun, was reaching for it while saying, you are going to die tonight and got off a clean kill shot.

Couple things don't ring well for me in regards to GZ:

He left his car
He stated that he felt TM saw his gun and yet they didn't wrestle for it, at least per his next day testimony
How did GZ so easily draw his weapon while being straddled MMA style and while possibly losing consciousness?

I think what happened was TM went running, GZ cut him off by going down the street, TM hid, GZ came up the middle of their complex and that's why they ended up where they were.

I don't think TM hit him and in the scuffle they ended up 20 feet from the initial strike location like GZ purposes.

Your "known" facts, aren't really known at all (except for GZ shooting TM). GZ had reason to wonder what an unknown person was doing in his neighborhood at night acting strangely.
There was exactly zero evidence introduced that proves that GZ disobeyed the 911 operator (even if he did, so what, it isn't against the law to disobey a 911 operator)

[imanihonjin]

In your opinion, what if you could prove the following thought went through GZ's head: Would you feel any different about the situation?

No.....I have a gun in my home for the same reason, if something goes wrong I have it to protect me. I hope I never have to use it and I hope its mere presence will be an adequate deterrent to a would be shooter, but I am glad I have it in case it isn't.

[Indy Coug]

No.....I have a gun in my home for the same reason, if something goes wrong I have it to protect me. I hope I never have to use it and I hope its mere presence will be an adequate deterrent to a would be shooter, but I am glad I have it in case it isn't.

The last two gun deaths in my town were accidental shootings of children inside their homes with their family guns.

[smokymountainrain]

No.....I have a gun in my home for the same reason, if something goes wrong I have it to protect me. I hope I never have to use it and I hope its mere presence will be an adequate deterrent to a would be shooter, but I am glad I have it in case it isn't.

I think you missed the point of the question or are purposefully dodging it. In my hypothetical above, GZ intentionally inserts himself into a situation where he knows there is a possibility of an altercation and the gun might have to be used.

In your answer above, you are merely minding your own business in your home - you are not making a conscious decision that you will get involved in a situation because you have a gun.

[il Padrino Ute]

I think the point many are making is that there is plausible reason to conclude that Zimmerman's following of Trayvon played a role in instigating the conflict that resulted in Zimmerman feeling his life was in danger and thus shooting Trayvon. The question is whether or not Zimmerman's actions led to Trayvon's actions which led to the shooting.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that Zimmerman following Martin is irrelevant as far as the self-defense claim is concerned. That is, that it only matters that Zimmerman felt his life was in danger after Martin was on top of him and punching him.

I'm not saying that Zimmerman is blameless here. But we could also say that Martin would be alive had he not gone after Zimmerman. He could have ignored that Zimmerman was following him and kept walking. I just wonder why some would believe that Zimmerman should be punished if the homicide was justifiable.

[imanihonjin]

The last two gun deaths in my town were accidental shootings of children inside their homes with their family guns.

Um....okay. Not exactly sure what the relevance is to the GZ TM discussion.

[imanihonjin]

I think you missed the point of the question or are purposefully dodging it. In my hypothetical above, GZ intentionally inserts himself into a situation where he knows there is a possibility of an altercation and the gun might have to be used.

In your answer above, you are merely minding your own business in your home - you are not making a conscious decision that you will get involved in a situation because you have a gun.

Do I fault someone for being more secure about confronting a potential criminal because they have a gun, no. If he thought to him self I am going to actually start an altercation with this person and if he gets the best of me, well I have my piece....that is different that saying sheesh there have been a string of robberies and this kid looks suspicious....I am going to hang out and keep an eye on him and boy am I glad I have my gun in the event this person actually is a criminal.

[il Padrino Ute]

In your opinion, what if you could prove the following thought went through GZ's head:

"I think this kid looks suspicious, since I have a gun on my hip, I'm going to go ahead and get out of my car and follow him for a bit - if he initiates an altercation with me, at least I have my gun to protect me" ?

Would you feel any different about the situation?

I can be honest and say that I would feel differently if it could be proven that that was in Zimmerman's head when Zimmerman first saw Martin. But that can't be proven and is merely speculation, so there's no reason to consider it.

[Indy Coug]

Um....okay. Not exactly sure what the relevance is to the GZ TM discussion.

You talked about having a gun at home for protection, so I made a comment about the safety of guns in the home. Relevance established.

[smokymountainrain]

Do I fault someone for being more secure about confronting a potential criminal because they have a gun, no.

Thank you. This is why you and I will never agree on this. I do fault him for that.

[imanihonjin]

You talked about having a gun at home for protection, so I made a comment about the safety of guns in the home. Relevance established.

What does gun safety in the home have to do with the GZ TM discussion?