Trayvon Martin

[RobinFinderson]

His behavior is fair game in helping us get a better picture of his character. I got suspended from school a few times, so I'm not saying the whole scenario is flipped upside down. I'm more interested in hearing about whether or not he has a pattern of violent or confrontational behavior. Had he been in trouble for getting in fights, bullying, etc?

It is beside the point. How a terrified child reacts to being stalked in the night by a significantly larger adult can not reasonably be considered a reflection of his 'character.'

[Jacob]

It is beside the point. How a terrified child reacts to being stalked in the night by a significantly larger adult can not reasonably be considered a reflection of his 'character.'

How do you know he was significantly larger? Do you think it would be relevant that the "child" is taller than the significantly larger adult? Would it be relevant if the young man was an experienced fighter?

How would a child typically react to a question from a significantly larger adult of "What are you doing here?" Would a child typically react by beating up the significantly larger adult? By breaking his nose? I would expect a child to either run away or just answer the question. I would never expect a child to respond by breaking the nose of the significantly larger adult.

[Colly Wolly]

It is beside the point. How a terrified child reacts to being stalked in the night by a significantly larger adult can not reasonably be considered a reflection of his 'character.'

Sounds like you have your mind made up. What's your reaction to the new claim out of the Zimmerman camp this morning that Martin attacked Zimmerman from behind as he was returning to his vehicle? What if the hunter became the hunted? Any history that Martin may have in initiating violence or responding violently to provocation is relevant to this discussion.

[DU Ute]

How do you know he was significantly larger? Do you think it would be relevant that the "child" is taller than the significantly larger adult? Would it be relevant if the young man was an experienced fighter?

How would a child typically react to a question from a significantly larger adult of "What are you doing here?" Would a child typically react by beating up the significantly larger adult? By breaking his nose? I would expect a child to either run away or just answer the question. I would never expect a child to respond by breaking the nose of the significantly larger adult.

What if he'd already tried to get away and was still being pursued?

[Jacob]

What if he'd already tried to get away and was still being pursued?

I rule that fact relevant. You?

[dabrockster]

I think we owe children special protection.

RF: I love ya but I think we are jumping to conclusions quick here without all the information. With all due respect, you keep invoking "Child" but Trayvon was 6'3 and weighed roughly 150 pounds. Zimmerman was 5'9 weighing roughly 200 pounds. Trayvon was 17 years old. He IS a teenage, NOT a child.. Do not take this as a slap to him or in any way as a way to justify what happened. I just think it is important to make this clear distinction..


Additional information that I think might interest you is the eye-witness that saw Zimmerman on the ground moaning etc is in fact a 13 year old child. I tend to think he would not lie about this and adds more validity to what possibly happened and may cause you to pause in your assessment of the situation..

I have to be honest. When finding out about this 13 year old eye-witness, the first thought that came to my mind was the color of skin to this 13 year old eye-witness? Was this child white or black? Why are we not told this? I think it is important to note. If he was white I am sure the media would whip that up in a frenzy as well. But as of right now we do not know. But I tend to think this has been asked and is known but is not newsworthy or would calm some of this hysteria we are seeing right now.. Just found this little missing information interesting...

Below is a quote from the article attached.

The new information is the most complete version yet of what Zimmerman claims happened on the night of Feb. 26 when he shot and killed the teenager.

In addition, an eyewitness, 13-year-old Austin Brown, told police he saw a man fitting Zimmerman's description lying on the grass moaning and crying for help just seconds before he heard the gunshot that killed Martin.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-shooter-teenager-gun/story?id=16000239#.T3C5LWXZeuI

This is still very tragic... A young man lost his life. I do not condone Zimmerman's action to follow Trayvon which resulted in his death.. This is very complex.. Do I think he should be charged with Murder? That is not for me to decide.. But Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson stroking this already tense situation will only cause more civil unrest heated debates, a city pinned against each that could easily move into even more sad tragic events including the possibility of loss of life.. THAT will be upon their heads...

[byu71]

Sounds like you have your mind made up. What's your reaction to the new claim out of the Zimmerman camp this morning that Martin attacked Zimmerman from behind as he was returning to his vehicle? What if the hunter became the hunted? Any history that Martin may have in initiating violence or responding violently to provocation is relevant to this discussion.

He sounds like the host and one of the analysts on CNN last night. They were convinced it was a racial situation. The other guest kept saying he would have to wait until all the information. The other two were, what more do you need to hear. I need all the facts to come out he says. They say, you have enough now.

The host and guest did agree we have to wait before we pronounce Zimmerman guilty of the crime, but we have enough information to say it is a racial situation.

Why is the need so strong among some to have this be because of race? Even if Zimmerman is hispanic not white, which is hardly ever mentioned in these discussions.

I think it is part of the scenario that the liberals want to paint the White America of the past and to some extent now as shitty people.

[RobinFinderson]

Sounds like you have your mind made up. What's your reaction to the new claim out of the Zimmerman camp this morning that Martin attacked Zimmerman from behind as he was returning to his vehicle? What if the hunter became the hunted? Any history that Martin may have in initiating violence or responding violently to provocation is relevant to this discussion.

I'd say Zimmerman's statement is relevant to his defense in court when he is charged with voluntary manslaughter.

Speaking of 'character,' Zimmerman started his 911 call by stating that there had been a spate of break-ins in the neighborhood. Someone should verify that his claim is true. Break-ins aren't that common, and I would expect them to be even less common in a gated community. I'm curious to find out if that statement was baloney.

[Colly Wolly]

I'd say Zimmerman's statement is relevant to his defense in court when he is charged with voluntary manslaughter.

Speaking of 'character,' Zimmerman started his 911 call by stating that there had been a spate of break-ins in the neighborhood. Someone should verify that his claim is true. Break-ins aren't that common, and I would expect them to be even less common in a gated community. I'm curious to find out if that statement was baloney.

Agree with most of this sentiment.

[byu71]

I'd say Zimmerman's statement is relevant to his defense in court when he is charged with voluntary manslaughter.

Speaking of 'character,' Zimmerman started his 911 call by stating that there had been a spate of break-ins in the neighborhood. Someone should verify that his claim is true. Break-ins aren't that common, and I would expect them to be even less common in a gated community. I'm curious to find out if that statement was baloney.

I have heard on two different news shows that the trouble in the neigborhood and break ins was verified.

Caveat: I don't trust the news to give me complete information anymore. They all seem agenda driven.

[dabrockster]

Friend of Zimmerman interviewed (Ahem. Is friend is the one with the beard..):

[YOUTUBE]nW5BQs6tCdA[/YOUTUBE]


Also, The New Black Panther Party has put out a $10,000 bounty for the capture of George Zimmerman...


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...,1231157.story


This continues to snowball out of control..

[DU Ute]

This is all pretty simple to me. You shouldn't be able to use deadly force on an unarmed individual when you instigate a confrontation in any way. The facts are pretty clear that Martin was afraid and trying to get away from Zimmerman. Zimmerman followed him when he shouldn't have been doing so (regardless of what the 911 operator said, trailing someone like he did was inappropriate. Colly Wolly has noted that anyone with a permit to carry should know this). He was the instigator here, the "but for" cause of whatever confrontation took place. I don't care who did what to get the fight going, I don't care if Martin was high or had a history of violence, I don't care if he was on top of Zimmerman, beating the hell out of him. Zimmerman shot and killed a boy with no weapon after he put the two of them in that situation. If it doesn't outrage you that someone could instigate a confrontation with an unarmed teenager then shoot him to death when things didn't go the way he'd like then you have some serious issues.

[RobinFinderson]

This is all pretty simple to me. You shouldn't be able to use deadly force on an unarmed individual when you instigate a confrontation in any way. The facts are pretty clear that Martin was afraid and trying to get away from Zimmerman. Zimmerman followed him when he shouldn't have been doing so (regardless of what the 911 operator said, trailing someone like he did was inappropriate. Colly Wolly has noted that anyone with a permit to carry should know this). He was the instigator here, the "but for" cause of whatever confrontation took place. I don't care who did what to get the fight going, I don't care if Martin was high or had a history of violence, I don't care if he was on top of Zimmerman, beating the hell out of him. Zimmerman shot and killed a boy with no weapon after he put the two of them in that situation. If it doesn't outrage you that someone could instigate a confrontation with an unarmed teenager then shoot him to death when things didn't go the way he'd like then you have some serious issues.

Bingo.

[Eddie]

If Martin really was 6'3" and 150 compared to Zimmerman at 5'9" and 200 - I'm having a hard time believing that Martin couldn't have just run away from Zimmerman and lost him.

I'd say Zimmerman's statement is relevant to his defense in court when he is charged with voluntary manslaughter.

Speaking of 'character,' Zimmerman started his 911 call by stating that there had been a spate of break-ins in the neighborhood. Someone should verify that his claim is true. Break-ins aren't that common, and I would expect them to be even less common in a gated community. I'm curious to find out if that statement was baloney.

You seem to be questioning absolutely any and everything Zimmerman may have said and done - while ascribing Martin all of the characteristics of a saint. When you lose all ability to even recognize subjectivity, you also tend to lose credibility.

This is all pretty simple to me. You shouldn't be able to use deadly force on an unarmed individual when you instigate a confrontation in any way. The facts are pretty clear that Martin was afraid and trying to get away from Zimmerman. Zimmerman followed him when he shouldn't have been doing so (regardless of what the 911 operator said, trailing someone like he did was inappropriate. Colly Wolly has noted that anyone with a permit to carry should know this). He was the instigator here, the "but for" cause of whatever confrontation took place. I don't care who did what to get the fight going, I don't care if Martin was high or had a history of violence, I don't care if he was on top of Zimmerman, beating the hell out of him. Zimmerman shot and killed a boy with no weapon after he put the two of them in that situation. If it doesn't outrage you that someone could instigate a confrontation with an unarmed teenager then shoot him to death when things didn't go the way he'd like then you have some serious issues.

What you seem to be saying is that we should all walk around with blinders on making sure we don't notice or attempt to notice anything. We shouldn't be looking closely enough to decide if someone is suspicious or looking closely enough even to determine if the police should be called. Mind your own damn business and leave everyone alone.

You don't care if Martin was high? If he started the fight? If he has a history of violence? You don't care about any of that? So at what point do people intervene? At what point do people make a difference in their own neighborhood?

Following someone suspicious should be OK. How do you define initiating a confrontation? Is it OK to ask someone what they are doing? Where they are going? They can say "none of your business" if they want. It should be OK to ask.

You seem to be saying that it is OK to physically assault people who are looking out for their neighbors and neighborhood. You honestly believe that?

I don't know what happened. I don't know who physically attacked who first. But I'm not going to say it is entirely Zimmerman's fault if all he did was follow the kid around and ask some questions.

I'm not saying what he did was smart. If he was really concerned he should've called the police from the beginning and kept his distance. There are a lot of things he could've/should've done differently. But it should be OK for neighborhood watch folks to follow someone around and ask some questions if they have concerns.

I'd suggest that if Martin was really concerned - enough to jump Zimmerman - maybe he should've called the police on his cell phone instead of just talking to his girlfriend.

Again - I'm not willing to say Zimmerman was entirely in the right. I'm just astounded that for some folks here it doesn't matter what happened up until Martin was shot. It doesn't matter who initiated it, what was said, or what else happened. But because Zimmerman was the one with the gun he is the one at fault. I don't buy that. He might be. But it isn't something that can or should be determined in a vacuum of everything else that happened that night.

[Surfah]

This is all pretty simple to me. You shouldn't be able to use deadly force on an unarmed individual when you instigate a confrontation in any way. The facts are pretty clear that Martin was afraid and trying to get away from Zimmerman. Zimmerman followed him when he shouldn't have been doing so (regardless of what the 911 operator said, trailing someone like he did was inappropriate. Colly Wolly has noted that anyone with a permit to carry should know this). He was the instigator here, the "but for" cause of whatever confrontation took place. I don't care who did what to get the fight going, I don't care if Martin was high or had a history of violence, I don't care if he was on top of Zimmerman, beating the hell out of him. Zimmerman shot and killed a boy with no weapon after he put the two of them in that situation. If it doesn't outrage you that someone could instigate a confrontation with an unarmed teenager then shoot him to death when things didn't go the way he'd like then you have some serious issues.

Nauvoo Whistling Brigade be damned.

What do you consider "instigating a confrontation?" Following someone you believe is suspicious until they're out of your neighborhood? Asking someone what business they have there? Threatening someone that you're going to call the police if they don't leave? And if you do any of these things and you're attacked for it you're not allowed to defend yourself simply because the attacker is unarmed? I think you're nuts with this defense.