The holocaust and civil rights

[wuapinmon]

Let's be sure not to generalize "colonialism" across the vastly different colonial histories of, for example, Britain, Spain and Belgium.

Belgium's brief colonial experiment in Africa was pretty much unmitigated evil.

Spain's lust for gold and silver in the Americas caused the death of hundreds of thousands of innocents.

Britain's wide-ranging colonial efforts had plenty of horrific moments - but also ultimately transformed into the first global bulwark against slavery.

"Colonialism" simply can't be reduced to one thing.

You're not going to like that I see more than a little will-to-truth in your statements.

[oxcoug]

You're not going to like that I see more than a little will-to-truth in your statements.

You're not going to like that I don't think that means a thing and that I see a somewhat unscholarly will-to-simplify-the-shit-out-of-a-complex thing in your statements.

[wuapinmon]

You're not going to like that I don't think that means a thing and that I see a somewhat unscholarly will-to-simplify-the-shit-out-of-a-complex thing in your statements.

Well, if we want to get complex, you're going to have to wait until I finish with final exams. But, I'll say that apologetics for British Imperialism smack to me of an insistence to believe that there is some truth about colonialism, independent of human self-interest, that can help us explain the need for British intervention somehow, that if we can just identify some rational reason via the abolition of certain practices--and call it truth, then it will fit the narrative of history that we've constructed around certain things and explain the generations of genocide the British carried out on FIVE CONTINENTS.

I'm not immune to this philosophical prejudice (e.g. see my Dale Murphy for the HOF thread).

I have to go now, and I don't want to start a fight with my friend. But, I'm feeling Tompettyish about this, in spite of my agreement that British colonialism seems more palatable against all the others, but then again, I like Dexter Morgan.

[creekster]

Let's be sure to not try and put any lipstick on the hog of colonialism. It killed way more than six million people.

See, you are doing exactly what I objected to about the oringinal premise; colonialism is so complex that it is silly to compare it to a policy decision implemented with stark efficiency in one place and at one time, relatively speaking. It's like comparing communism to Jim Jones.

[Indy Coug]

Moral equivalency is such a noble intellectual pursuit.

[wuapinmon]

See, you are doing exactly what I objected to about the oringinal premise; colonialism is so complex that it is silly to compare it to a policy decision implemented with stark efficiency in one place and at one time, relatively speaking. It's like comparing communism to Jim Jones.

I think the Holocaust could be considered German colonialism under the name of Lebensraum. The lands and wealth were taken, and the victims were just another commodity consumed by the colonizer.

Where others see divisions, I see parallels.

[creekster]

I think the Holocaust could be considered German colonialism under the name of Lebensraum. The lands and wealth were taken, and the victims were just another commodity consumed by the colonizer.

Where others see divisions, I see parallels.

Is this you being patronizing? Whether or not I use the oxford comma I am not one of your students. So, is this your contention or not? Could it or is it? Moreover, this avoids the original question.

[wuapinmon]

Is this you being patronizing? Whether or not I use the oxford comma I am not one of your students. So, is this your contention or not? Could it or is it? Moreover, this avoids the original question.

No, it's not me being patronizing.

Yes it's my contention, but I said could because I don't see a need to contend and hold to every thought I have or share, and I'm not interested in the original question. I think the ills of colonialism persist into the present, even in the developed world, but it's far too complex an issue to subsume into simplification and fact and putative truth. So, I use conditionals so that there's wiggle room.

I'm going to bow out of this thread. People seem to be getting worked up by my comments when all I wanted to do was offer a differing opinion to spark conversation. You're too grumpy with me lately, and I don't appreciate it. It's not necessary or welcome.

[creekster]

No, it's not me being patronizing.

Yes it's my contention, but I said could because I don't see a need to contend and hold to every thought I have or share, and I'm not interested in the original question. I think the ills of colonialism persist into the present, even in the developed world, but it's far too complex an issue to subsume into simplification and fact and putative truth. So, I use conditionals so that there's wiggle room.

I'm going to bow out of this thread. People seem to be getting worked up by my comments when all I wanted to do was offer a differing opinion to spark conversation. You're too grumpy with me lately, and I don't appreciate it. It's not necessary or welcome.

Sorry you feel that way. I suppose if you feel it is important to point out the overarching ills of colonialism whenever you have the chance then it makes sense. I am more than happy to have a discussion, but I am not fond of receiving pedantic lectures. Moreover, perhaps one reason you saw parallels when others saw divisions is because we were talking about a different question; one in which you claim to have no interest and yet one to which you return repeatedly here, although apparently only as a pulpit to address your own agenda.

Btw, the fact that you feel compelled to use conditionals and give yourself wiggle room really underscores my point. But I suspect you know that.

[wuapinmon]

Sorry you feel that way. I suppose if you feel it is important to point out the overarching ills of colonialism whenever you have the chance then it makes sense. I am more than happy to have a discussion, but I am not fond of receiving pedantic lectures. Moreover, perhaps one reason you saw parallels when others saw divisions is because we were talking about a different question; one in which you claim to have no interest and yet one to which you return repeatedly here, although apparently only as a pulpit to address your own agenda.

Btw, the fact that you feel compelled to use conditionals and give yourself wiggle room really underscores my point. But I suspect you know that.

[marsupial]

I recently came across a discussion of Jiddu Krishnamurti, who believed that while the acts of the nazis were certainly horrific, they weren't necessarily anything more than a manifestation of the racism that dominated all of Europe, with British imperialism being another.

This got me thinking that perhaps the extreme demonstration of the fruits of racism provided by the nazis served to create or at least speed the American civil rights movement.

I assume there's a literature on this topic with which some here may be familiar. Humans seem driven to learn from tragedy or to make the most of a bad situation, and I wonder if this is considered a case of that by those who've studied it.

I watched a PBS documentary on how many Jews in the North were coming to the South during the Civil Rights movement to march and show their support. I think the Holocaust at the very least helped the Jews show compassion and concern for race relations in the U.S.

I wish my own people were as supportive of the movement. Despite the persecution the Mormon pioneers faced, it doesn't seem like the Mormons at that time were moved at all by the Civil Rights movement. In fact, ETB was against it.

[oxcoug]

I think the Holocaust could be considered German colonialism under the name of Lebensraum. The lands and wealth were taken, and the victims were just another commodity consumed by the colonizer.

Where others see divisions, I see parallels.

Ohmygawsh. Wuap, I know how smart you are which makes this silliness all that much more silly.

You REALLY want to try to play this card?

You do realize that trying to press (a) the Nazi drive to exterminate hyper-urban Jewish populations into (b) the Nazi drive to open up large agricultural / industrial spaces for the expansion of the German population (which is what "lebensraum" was) suggests either a profound ignorance of history or an equally impressive need to bend everything you see into your colonialist construct. Colonialism's evil was that it was HYPER-rational - rational to some horrific extremes which made human beings fodder for the profit-making machinery of empire.

There was nothing rational at all about Hitler's determination to destroy the Jews. It was economic and cultural suicide - it diverted massive state and military resources that were needed to fight a war.

Again - because I know you're a damn smart guy who just got a corner of mind tweaked out by the colonial fixation that thrives in Latin American corners of the academy - I'll go with the latter.

[wuapinmon]

Ohmygawsh. Wuap, I know how smart you are which makes this silliness all that much more silly.

You REALLY want to try to play this card?

You do realize that trying to press (a) the Nazi drive to exterminate hyper-urban Jewish populations into (b) the Nazi drive to open up large agricultural / industrial spaces for the expansion of the German population (which is what "lebensraum" was) suggests either a profound ignorance of history or an equally impressive need to bend everything you see into your colonialist construct. Colonialism's evil was that it was HYPER-rational - rational to some horrific extremes which made human beings fodder for the profit-making machinery of empire.

There was nothing rational at all about Hitler's determination to destroy the Jews. It was economic and cultural suicide - it diverted massive state and military resources that were needed to fight a war.

Again - because I know you're a damn smart guy who just got a corner of mind tweaked out by the colonial fixation that thrives in Latin American corners of the academy - I'll go with the latter.

I'm going to ignore the impugning of my education and discipline and state that I'm in good company in my ideas. While I gave a brief and crude explanation of the connection, I'll say that respected people like Hannah Arendt (Totalitarianism: Part Three) have written at length about the transnational aspects of German imperialism as it relates to the Holocaust.

There's also a peer-reviewed collection of essays published by Columbia University Press this year:



Oh, (forgive my glibness) some placed called Oxford University published a Handbook of Holocaust Studies this year with a chapter on "Colonialism" in the "Enablers" section, while some Bo-Diddley Tech UP called Cambridge published Nazi Empire: German Colonialism and Imperialism from Bismarck to Hitler last year.

So, I'll admit that my explanation was hastily and crudely rendered, but to dismiss it as silly or a symptom of my supposedly flawed discipline is unnecessarily offensive and unwarranted.

These issues are complex and warrant conversation, study, and dialogue, and, if desired, the conditional tense, because precious little is cut-and-dried in history.

[Blueintheface]

This doesn't answer your question Woot as to the correlation between our own civil rights movement and European racism but I'll share this anyway as it involves the subject and my wife and I just had this discussion last night...

My wife is an RN and works at a nursing home and recently a holocaust survivor was admitted as a patient, sharing a room with an African American woman. Despite advanced dimentia the African American woman is salient enough to insist that her new roommate be taken care of first each and everytime a nurse comes by to assist. Her comment is always the same, "She's been through a helluva lot more than me in her life". Again, this doesn't speak to civil rights at all because a Chinese or Caucasian woman could have the same response but I thought it was relevant given the subject of this thread.