The holocaust and civil rights

[woot]

I recently came across a discussion of Jiddu Krishnamurti, who believed that while the acts of the nazis were certainly horrific, they weren't necessarily anything more than a manifestation of the racism that dominated all of Europe, with British imperialism being another.

This got me thinking that perhaps the extreme demonstration of the fruits of racism provided by the nazis served to create or at least speed the American civil rights movement.

I assume there's a literature on this topic with which some here may be familiar. Humans seem driven to learn from tragedy or to make the most of a bad situation, and I wonder if this is considered a case of that by those who've studied it.

[oxcoug]

The idea of there being some kind of meaningful equivalence between British colonialism and the Nazi racial extermination ideology is.... a bit of a non-starter.

One is the calculated persecution, torture and annihilation of an ethnic group. The other - while tragically problematic - actually involved hundreds of thousands of British diplomats and civil servants who thought they were working to elevate another race.

And in cases like the banning of Sati (ritual widow burnings) starting in 1798 by the British, it's hard to argue that they didn't occasionally succeed in doing just that.

[falafel]

The idea of there being some kind of meaningful equivalence between British colonialism and the Nazi racial extermination ideology is.... a bit of a non-starter.

One is the calculated persecution, torture and annihilation of an ethnic group. The other - while tragically problematic - actually involved hundreds of thousands of British diplomats and civil servants who thought they were working to elevate another race.

And in cases like the banning of Sati (ritual widow burnings) starting in 1798 by the British, it's hard to argue that they didn't occasionally succeed in doing just that.

If I understand woot's comment, its that the two were both examples of large-scale manifestations of racism, not that they were equivalent.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

The Japanese invaded China. The Persians invaded Ancient Greece. British Imperialism was hardly just a manifestation of racism peculiar Britain. Different countries and ethnicities of people have been invading and conquering other groups throughout history. The British were just better at it than just about anyone else.

I'm sure Mahmoud Durka Durka would love to start taking over other countries but his country is still working on something that the West figured out almost 70 years ago. I don't think Western Europe as a whole (excluding Nazi Germany) was particularly more racist than any other part of the world, they just had better tools born out of societies that encouraged science, technology and innovation. The same societal pathologies explain why Mahmoud Durka Durka is in power and why they can't repeat a process the West invented from scratch 70 years ago.

[woot]

The Japanese invaded China. The Persians invaded Ancient Greece. British Imperialism was hardly just a manifestation of racism peculiar Britain. Different countries and ethnicities of people have been invading and conquering other groups throughout history. The British were just better at it than just about anyone else.

I'm sure Mahmoud Durka Durka would love to start taking over other countries but his country is still working on something that the West figured out almost 70 years ago. I don't think Western Europe as a whole (excluding Nazi Germany) was particularly more racist than any other part of the world, they just had better tools born out of societies that encouraged science, technology and innovation. The same societal pathologies explain why Mahmoud Durka Durka is in power and why they can't repeat a process the West invented from scratch 70 years ago.

If you'd like, you can replace "Europe" with "the world" in my original post. It doesn't change the question. Also, be advised that using "Durka Durka" is about as enlightened as using "Ching Chong".

[Color Me Badd Fan]

If you'd like, you can replace "Europe" with "the world" in my original post. It doesn't change the question. Also, be advised that using "Durka Durka" is about as enlightened as using "Ching Chong".

Lighten up. It's a joke and it makes it so I don't have to google his name.

[Viking]

A lot of people are anti-semitic.

Only one decided to kill 6 million innocent jews.

[Viking]

A lot of people are anti-semitic.

Only one decided to kill 6 million innocent jews.

[woot]

Bump, in case anyone has thoughts or has looked into the influence of the holocaust on the civil rights movement. Perhaps its roots are deeper, but it seems like an interesting question.

[RobinFinderson]

If you'd like, you can replace "Europe" with "the world" in my original post. It doesn't change the question. Also, be advised that using "Durka Durka" is about as enlightened as using "Ching Chong".

[ame="http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/25082/november-08-2005/intercepted-satellite-feed"]Intercepted Satellite Feed - The Colbert Report - 2005-08-11 - Video Clip | Comedy Central[/ame]

[creekster]

Bump, in case anyone has thoughts or has looked into the influence of the holocaust on the civil rights movement. Perhaps its roots are deeper, but it seems like an interesting question.

I am not sure I buy the connection. Bear in mind I have done no reading about this whatsoever, but it just doesn't feel right to me. To me, it seems more likely that the post war prosperity in the country, along with our tremendously farsighted governing documents, gave our society the motivation, time, and wealth to allow for such tremendous social change, for better or worse.

It is my impression, and it might easily be wrong, that the holocaust did not stand out in the 40s as it so clearly does today. The horrors of war were very fresh in the minds of the world in 1945. The holocaust was part of those horrors and it is my impression that few delved into it separately until some time had gone by. When we finally got around to acknowledging and studying the holocaust, the civil rights movement was well along the way. I tend to think civil rights was more influenced by anti-colonial movements as it was by anti-anti-Semites. Indeed, one might say that colonial racism ended up assisting the civil rights movement.

I must admit I find the notion that the holocaust is just a manifestation of the same impulse as colonialism to be troubling; it minimizes the evil of the holocaust and flattens out the varying contours of colonialism.

Once again, this is just off the top; nothing very careful or reasoned.

[woot]

I am not sure I buy the connection. Bear in mind I have done no reading about this whatsoever, but it just doesn't feel right to me. To me, it seems more likely that the post war prosperity in the country, along with our tremendously farsighted governing documents, gave our society the motivation, time, and wealth to allow for such tremendous social change, for better or worse.

It is my impression, and it might easily be wrong, that the holocaust did not stand out in the 40s as it so clearly does today. The horrors of war were very fresh in the minds of the world in 1945. The holocaust was part of those horrors and it is my impression that few delved into it separately until some time had gone by. When we finally got around to acknowledging and studying the holocaust, the civil rights movement was well along the way. I tend to think civil rights was more influenced by anti-colonial movements as it was by anti-anti-Semites. Indeed, one might say that colonial racism ended up assisting the civil rights movement.

I must admit I find the notion that the holocaust is just a manifestation of the same impulse as colonialism to be troubling; it minimizes the evil of the holocaust and flattens out the varying contours of colonialism.

Once again, this is just off the top; nothing very careful or reasoned.

Interesting points. I seem to remember having read that the extent of the holocaust wasn't known until well after 1945. It also makes sense that most people would have been more concerned about the broader context of WW2 at the time anyway. I still wonder if the holocaust would have had the effect of raising awareness of the importance of equality, or of serving to encourage people to dissociate themselves with even the appearance of holding similar views to the nazis, particularly in the 50s and 60s after the holocaust became more widely understood.

[wuapinmon]

Let's be sure to not try and put any lipstick on the hog of colonialism. It killed way more than six million people.

[woot]

Let's be sure to not try and put any lipstick on the hog of colonialism. It killed way more than six million people.

I wasn't going to say it, given how sensitive the first few responses were, but this is an important point. I also find it important to point out that about half of the people the Nazis killed weren't Jewish. The holocaust is an example of the systematic termination of a specific group of people, which makes it especially horrific, but I tire of the attitude that nothing can ever be compared to it, as if the memory of the Jews lost or otherwise affected by the holocaust is minimized if other instances of mass killings are even mentioned.

[oxcoug]

Let's be sure to not try and put any lipstick on the hog of colonialism. It killed way more than six million people.

Let's be sure not to generalize "colonialism" across the vastly different colonial histories of, for example, Britain, Spain and Belgium.

Belgium's brief colonial experiment in Africa was pretty much unmitigated evil.

Spain's lust for gold and silver in the Americas caused the death of hundreds of thousands of innocents.

Britain's wide-ranging colonial efforts had plenty of horrific moments - but also ultimately transformed into the first global bulwark against slavery.

"Colonialism" simply can't be reduced to one thing.