How do we fix education?

[RobinFinderson]

There are no easy fixes, but I think we have to take a "Tiger Mom" approach. Let the kids who are excelling, excel. Let the kids who are failing, fail. Don't slow down everyone in the name of self-esteem.

In elementary school, we had three classes per grade. Each was assigned a letter (A were the smart kids, B average, C below average). This was tough for the Cs or the Bs who wanted to be As, but we learned a ton in the A class. Around 5th grade they did away with the system, and I got pretty bored with school.

I don't know that there is an easy answer to this, but I do feel like we hold certain kids back because we're stuck in a win-lose paradigm (I hate it when I quote Covey).

I have NO problem with tracking, which is the technical term for separating the 'smart kids' from everyone else. We selected Little Robin's middle school primarily on the strength of its tracking system, since LR tested into all of the best classes.

The problem with tracking in poor schools is that budget cuts do not allow for class sizes below a certain point. At Faith's school there are plenty of AP classes, but students who lack preparation her funneled into these classes because there is no room for them anywhere else. That is a FUNDING problem.

For tracking to work right it requires many more teachers, but when it comes time to cutting budgets, these 'superfluous' teachers will always be the first to go. Schools will always figure that two science teachers can do the same job as three, failing to realize that the success of any tracking system DEPENDS on the the three teachers for three levels of instruction.

I am all for tracking, which ought to include arts and industrial arts programs for students who want to track down those career paths, but these programs are expensive.

[RC Vikings]

Cut down on administration and improve on the ratio of kids to teachers. We have two school districts in our county and one would be plenty.

[Uncle Ted]

Spend more money on education...



by sinking massive amounts of money in developing a Matrix brain programmer and make teachers/schools obsolete. Let the engineers solve this one (or, at least, have a hell'va lot of fun).

[YOUTUBE]Qaw5fsrqOXo[/YOUTUBE]

[PaloAltoCougar]

[QUOTE=RobinFinderson;556725]I'll have to watch the piece to have a full opinion, but I like the sound of it. I wonder how the cost of education compares to the regular public schools. Here in LA the Gates Foundation has helped fund some incredible looking schools (world class architecture in poor neighborhoods, which I think is a good thing) that produce mediocre outcomes. They are only marginally better than their pure public counterparts, but they operate at much higher costs. These schools would not be operable without piles of free private capital. Is it the same with the school featured in the 60 Minutes?[/QUOTE]

It was unclear, but I believe they were getting by only on their allotment from the state. The school is located in Washington Heights, and the students were nearly all black or Hispanic, with most performing well below grade level when the school began. Interestingly, after one year, they hadn't made significant gains (and in fact in some cases had underperformed) relative to the regular public schools, but the principal said it was too early to judge its success (and there are data to support that), but that if one doesn't see significant gains in 3-4 years, the principal said he should be fired.

[ERCougar]

I'll have to watch the piece to have a full opinion, but I like the sound of it. I wonder how the cost of education compares to the regular public schools. Here in LA the Gates Foundation has helped fund some incredible looking schools (world class architecture in poor neighborhoods, which I think is a good thing) that produce mediocre outcomes. They are only marginally better than their pure public counterparts, but they operate at much higher costs. These schools would not be operable without piles of free private capital. Is it the same with the school featured in the 60 Minutes?

I watched the piece too, even posted about it in response to your earlier post. http://cougaruteforum.com/showpost.p...37&postcount=6

You ignored me.

Anyway, the school takes no outside or private funding, and is run on exactly the same budget per student as the rest of the NY public system. They save through making the teachers take on a lot of the auxiliary work that is typically hired out and through low cost bare-bones facilities. So yes, the teachers work harder and longer hours, but they all seem very happy to do it. Additionally, they have film review and critique sessions to help each other improve their skills and are constantly being evaluated. It's pretty intense, but again, they're all happy. I believe there's a positive feedback independent of any promotion or recognition that comes from doing your job very well, and that seems to hold here. Interesting piece.

You'll probably ignore me again.

[The_Tick]

Something that came out in our local paper yesterday...

We are in SoCal. Migrants come here by the truckloads to work in the fields.

We are seeing some of the data that came out of the latest US Census and here is what came in the paper yesterday:

- Bakersfield had a population increase of 100,000 in the last 10 years.

- 78% of the 100,000 are Hispanic.

- PBVUSD (best school district in the city/county) in the 2000 Census had a student body enrollment of 52% White/Non-Hispanic.

- PBVUSD as of the 2010 Census has a student body enrollment of 30% White/Non-Hispanic.

- PBVUSD hired 616 teachers/aides between 2000 and 2010 to work in the ESL program to accomidate the change in demographics. These teachers get paid a stipend (as do the aides) because they can perform in English and Spanish.

This is a school district that people were killing themselves to move and get into in the early 2000's. Now...they aren't. People are moving to the NW part of town to the Rosedale school district, because it has a student enrollment of 60% White/Non-Hispanic. It has replaced PBVUSD as the premier school district in the county.

This is where the system is failing. We live in a country that will not even designate an "Official" language, and we are teaching kids in English and Spanish.

Now...if you average 40,000 a year per each of these employees mentioned above (aides make less, teachers make more...so I picked that number) you have added 24.6 million is SALARY alone per year to make this happen. This isn't including benefits or overtime or anything like that. Salary alone.

That is one reason why the system is failing. Now imagine if we used that amount of money and brought in teachers to lower class size. We have some teachers that can't get jobs because they aren't bilingual.

System is effed. We need an Easy Button and to start over.

[tooblue]

I watched the piece too, even posted about it in response to your earlier post. http://cougaruteforum.com/showpost.p...37&postcount=6

You ignored me.

Anyway, the school takes no outside or private funding, and is run on exactly the same budget per student as the rest of the NY public system. They save through making the teachers take on a lot of the auxiliary work that is typically hired out and through low cost bare-bones facilities. So yes, the teachers work harder and longer hours, but they all seem very happy to do it. Additionally, they have film review and critique sessions to help each other improve their skills and are constantly being evaluated. It's pretty intense, but again, they're all happy. I believe there's a positive feedback independent of any promotion or recognition that comes from doing your job very well, and that seems to hold here. Interesting piece.

You'll probably ignore me again.

I won't ignore you. I also saw the 60 minutes piece on Sunday and I have mixed feelings about it. My primary concern is that the $125,000 per teacher salary seemed to be the main focus, or the prime motivator for the teachers even wanting to teach at the school. In fact that was the title for the 60 minute piece.

When it comes to education, money should never be the prime motivator. The education system does not need to be fixed so much as peoples mentality as it relates to education needs to be adjusted. While I agree that teachers should be paid more on average and that tenure should be merit based, we should be asking: what is the real value of education to individuals, families and society as a whole?

Until we can answer that question, we will only ever be able to treat the symptoms and not the disease.

[ERCougar]

I won't ignore you. I also saw the 60 minutes piece on Sunday and I have mixed feelings about it. My primary concern is that the $125,000 per teacher salary seemed to be the main focus, or the prime motivator for the teachers even wanting to teach at the school. In fact that was the title for the 60 minute piece.

When it comes to education, money should never be the prime motivator. The education system does not need to be fixed so much as peoples mentality as it relates to education needs to be adjusted. While I agree that teachers should be paid more on average and that tenure should be merit based, we should be asking: what is the real value of education to individuals, families and society as a whole?

Until we can answer that question, we will only ever be able to treat the symptoms and not the disease.

I agree but that seems like a different question. This is talking about how to most efficiently use the money that has already been allocated.

[FMCoug]

I won't ignore you. I also saw the 60 minutes piece on Sunday and I have mixed feelings about it. My primary concern is that the $125,000 per teacher salary seemed to be the main focus, or the prime motivator for the teachers even wanting to teach at the school. In fact that was the title for the 60 minute piece.

When it comes to education, money should never be the prime motivator. The education system does not need to be fixed so much as peoples mentality as it relates to education needs to be adjusted. While I agree that teachers should be paid more on average and that tenure should be merit based, we should be asking: what is the real value of education to individuals, families and society as a whole?

Until we can answer that question, we will only ever be able to treat the symptoms and not the disease.

I'm not an educator so I'll defer to those who are. But I'm not sure I agree with that. The bottom line is that for most people, money is a prime motivator when it comes to career choice. So if you want the best and brightest, money is one of the primary things that will attract them.

[Paperback Writer]

I'm not an educator so I'll defer to those who are. But I'm not sure I agree with that. The bottom line is that for most people, money is a prime motivator when it comes to career choice. So if you want the best and brightest, money is one of the primary things that will attract them.

Money also seems to be how our society assesses value. It certainly is the case in our legal system. So I agree, want the best and the brightest? Then allocate the money to teacher's salaries. My family has worked in the education field for generations. I opted for corporate America (with some regret) because of money. That and I decided against pursuing a PhD and a career in secondary education. If the money was there for teachers along with accountability; talent will follow.

[New Mexican Disaster]

My solution: Make all the teachers stop the kids from being poor. Also, if we could get their parents to be better educated that would help.

Declining college graduation rates and the technological gap between us and all other industrialized countries is enormous.All these horrible problems that we have had for the last 30 years falling behind all the other developed nations in economic output and technology because they consistently out achieve us on their tests since a Nation at Risk report came out should serve as a rallying cry. Oh wait, that never happened.

Heh...I guess I just don't buy the premise.

Also, there is this article that details a study that shows that public school students outperform both private and charter schools on tests when demographic data is controlled for.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/28/ed...ests.html?_r=1

A little food for thought.

[tooblue]

I agree but that seems like a different question. This is talking about how to most efficiently use the money that has already been allocated.

But, your question will be answered by answering my question first. What is the value of an education to individuals, families and society as a whole? What do we, as a society, truly value ... knowledge, understanding, self-fulfillment, or ... fame and fortune, which may or may not include a little knowledge, understanding and self-fulfillment gained along the way?

Is education only a means to an end, or could it represent something more? FM readily admits education is primarily a means to an end and as long as that is the case the most efficient use of the money will be to allocate it to the preparing students for careers in fields that pay well. It's a vicious cycle that needs to be broken.

[FMCoug]

But, your question will be answered by answering my question first. What is the value of an education to individuals, families and society as a whole? What do we, as a society, truly value ... knowledge, understanding, self-fulfillment, or ... fame and fortune, which may or may not include a little knowledge, understanding and self-fulfillment gained along the way?

Is education only a means to an end, or could it represent something more? FM readily admits education is primarily a means to an end and as long as that is the case the most efficient use of the money will be to allocate it to the preparing students for careers in fields that pay well. It's a vicious cycle that needs to be broken.

I have this argument with my wife all the time. She is definitely one of the "money doesn't matter" types. Psychology degree, worked in social work before having kids, now teaches HS part-time, not because we need the money (in fact I think it probably costs me money) but because she enjoys it and is good at it. But people like her are the exception to the rule. As long as "society" is primarily money (or material things / quality of life) driven, you're not going to break that "vicious cycle".

[ERCougar]

But, your question will be answered by answering my question first. What is the value of an education to individuals, families and society as a whole? What do we, as a society, truly value ... knowledge, understanding, self-fulfillment, or ... fame and fortune, which may or may not include a little knowledge, understanding and self-fulfillment gained along the way?

Is education only a means to an end, or could it represent something more? FM readily admits education is primarily a means to an end and as long as that is the case the most efficient use of the money will be to allocate it to the preparing students for careers in fields that pay well. It's a vicious cycle that needs to be broken.

I don't think FM's "career choice for money" viewpoint is incompatible at all with believing that education has a value independent of enhancing one's money-making capabilities. Where's the conflict?

[tooblue]

I have this argument with my wife all the time. She is definitely one of the "money doesn't matter" types. Psychology degree, worked in social work before having kids, now teaches HS part-time, not because we need the money (in fact I think it probably costs me money) but because she enjoys it and is good at it. But people like her are the exception to the rule. As long as "society" is primarily money (or material things / quality of life) driven, you're not going to break that "vicious cycle".

Firstly, I am not a "money doesn't matter" type. Money does matter but the problem is, in my experience, it tends to be the only thing that "matters" for far too many people. How much money is enough ... how many material things does one truly need to improve their quality of life? Our economies are collapsing because we are failing to answer that question realistically.

As an aside, I teach in college programs that teach the technologies you use, employ and manage daily. The opportunity to learn the essential coding languages, data structures and methodologies to make a lot of money (the kind you likely make) is placed before my students daily. They see it and understand what is at stake, but the curriculum is challenging and quite frankly requires hard work to achieve the required competency to be successful.

Yet, they all still want the big pay day, so they constantly look for short cuts, or ways to get someone else to do the work for them. When the motivation is only money, their personal integrity is set aside along with an innate human desire to create something unique and powerful. Ultimately they do not learn to write code, but rather only how to copy and paste it and claim it as their own.