States and Unions

[creekster]

Link yourself, you are one who claimed unionization is why all the manufacturing jobs were outsourced. A non-union steel worker still costs more than a Chinese one.

Perhpas. But dont the nonunion workers here take advantage of the amrket established by the unions to set their own prices? IOW, it is hard to say what the non-union market is as long as there are unions.

[frank ryan]

Perhpas. But dont the nonunion workers here take advantage of the amrket established by the unions to set their own prices? IOW, it is hard to say what the non-union market is as long as there are unions.

You really think the presence of unions is the only reason for higher wages in manufacturing? And if you believe how could you hate unions for driving up wages, that is what their members want them to do.

[byu71]

How is Wisconsin going to get the money to pay what the Unions want. Do they have a NBA team in Wisconsin. We could take 90% of the players income and put toward it. Also charge the owner a surcharge of $50 on every ticket he sells. What, they are moving the team out of Milwaukee, why?

[creekster]

You really think the presence of unions is the only reason for higher wages in manufacturing? And if you believe how could you hate unions for driving up wages, that is what their members want them to do.

Do you believe the presence of unions has zero effect on wages for non union labor?

I was just making a small point.

I don't hate unions. My grandfather was a teamster and his union benefits were very significant for him and my grandmother. I was not and am not a fan of everythign unions do, however, but I also see they have played an important role in our economy and society. I hope they contnue to find a positive role to play.

[frank ryan]

Do you believe the presence of unions has zero effect on wages for non union labor?

I was just making a small point.

I don't hate unions. My grandfather was a teamster and his union benefits were very significant for him and my grandmother. I was not and am not a fan of everythign unions do, however, but I also see they have played an important role in our economy and society. I hope they contnue to find a positive role to play.

No, they affect wages for sure. But they aren't the reason outsourcing happened.

[dabrockster]

I look at this two ways. This is a direct hit on the major unions players across the nation. The SEIU's of the world who give local unions a bad name. I think this is a form of reducing their power. Cal it what you want but I see it no different then the all out assault National UNions such as SEIU has done to bring down the political party they disagree with. This is a new time, and what we are seeing is history. I do not consider it an assault on Unions, but a reform needed to bring USA back into being a more competitive country.

Second, what we are seeing is a transitional shift in what Unions have gotten over the years. Mgmt and Unions have worked closely and it has been a good relationship, however there is some major flaws in a CBA contract across the nation that has been detrimental to the financial stability of the states (Pensions, cross sharing of benefits etc). What this is is a direct attack on brining these Unions into the reality of sharing their costs rather than expecting most tax payers to cover their benefits (Which is unsustanable).. One issue in Ohio is once anything is in the CBA it can never be removed, and this is not ideal in current times nor beneficial...

Here is a great example on how unions can be very selfish in economical times and why Governors are taking such a hard line.. The Unions are forcing it and I believe in this time. The tax payers are not behind them and they will lose this political debate...

Here is Christie speaking to a teachers union member at a townhall meeting and goes to the heart of the problems that is now being escalated by other Governors:
[YOUTUBE]PkuTm-ON904[/YOUTUBE]

[Moliere]

No, they affect wages for sure. But they aren't the reason outsourcing happened.

Did you mean to say "they aren't THE reason outsourcing happened"? Denying that unions didn't play a part in manufacturing being outsourced is ignorance. But it's also safe to say that jobs are outsourced because child labor and working condition laws are much more lax in other countries. If I were Frank Ryan, I'd be proud of unions playing a part in outsourcing our manufacturing because it means were are no longer allowing 12 year olds to work in mines in unsafe conditions.

Manufacturing will always move to the country that has the most liberal working conditions, and right now that is China and other Asian countries. Once they modernize their laws the manufacturing will move somewhere else (Africa?).

[Borderline Divine]

And now it has spread to Ohio.

The hippie in me rejoices.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...n-to-ohio.html

[dabrockster]

The hippie in me rejoices.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...n-to-ohio.html

I mingled and walked through the statehouse yesterday during the testimonies.. It was a nice civil event and not an outright yelling etc. In fact I was surprised by how small the crowd was.. The Atrium, was full, but the front lawn of the capital had a fairly small crowd.. Nothing like is being reported or stated..

But it was cool To see history in the making was cool. Plus a group of Tea Party members were there as well and the discussion was very civil and kind towards each other.. I did see about 3 or 4 buses of SEIU members. They were leaving and heading home at 2 PM..

Overall, it was cool to be able to walk around in the statehouse during the testimonies.

My local City Manager spoke in support of the bill. Talked about issues she has had with her Unions. If some of you remember. They were required to pay a Police Office who was on disability (They tried to fire him) because he was given a ticket for riding a motorcycle in excess of 150 MPH WHILE OUT ON DISABILITY!!

Story about it:

A state arbitrator has ruled Gahanna must give Thomas his job back -- when he returns from injury leave -- but can impose a 90-day unpaid suspension. Arbitrators decided the city did not have just cause for firing.

http://www2.nbc4i.com/news/2010/mar/10/police_officer_will_get_his_job_back_after_motorcy-ar-9172/

[Moliere]

The hippie in me rejoices.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...n-to-ohio.html

I say this flippantly, but this is hilarious. These guys are turning into the tea party yellers of 2009. We are all just a bunch of hoarders trying to hang onto our stash.

[Borderline Divine]

I say this flippantly, but this is hilarious. These guys are turning into the tea party yellers of 2009. We are all just a bunch of hoarders trying to hang onto our stash.

Honestly I'm starting to believe that Americans are un-governable.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Taxes and regulatory structure are more to blame for outsourcing than are unions and wage pressures, although there is plenty of blame to go around.

I am a union member. I believe union can do mucho good for people. I am a strong believer in job shop unions, but I have a strong mistrust of multi-company unions.

For instance (in the past) if the UAW gets pissed at Chrysler for some reason and calls a strike, there is no valid reason for Ford and GM to strike in support. I would prefer Ford and GM (WHICH ARE SEPERATE, DISTINCT, AUTONOMOUS COMPANIES) to be allowed to take advantage of the situation and put the hurt on their competition.

Likewise I am disgusted at seeing work slowdowns, walkouts, etc in OTHER STATES in support of Wisconsin's unions. I am also extremely disgusted to hear that some protesters are camping out at the homes of state legistators and following around the Governor's family. I don't believe those are caused or directed by the unions, but the whole situation is very dangerous.

Madison, WI is the Kremlin of the midwest. My brother lives in Milwaukee and can't wait to leave the state.

Here is a thread I posted that apparently nobody saw or cared about. It describes some of the crap going on in Massachusetts with public sector unions, and the fallout from decades of caving to strongarm tactics.

Parking attendants making >$110k/yr, tollbooth collectors make >$75k, with full pension retirement

[venkman]

I say keep it up public employee unions. The more you talk, the more the taxpayers will turn against you. You folkls just don't get it: shitty teachers shouldn't have tenure, your defined benefit pensions are bankrupting us, and you should have to pay for some of your own f-ing healthcare just like the rest of us.


Note to Frank: I do not hate unions (well at least private sector unions).

[venkman]

Taxes and regulatory structure are more to blame for outsourcing than are unions and wage pressures, although there is plenty of blame to go around.

I am a union member. I believe union can do mucho good for people. I am a strong believer in job shop unions, but I have a strong mistrust of multi-company unions.

For instance (in the past) if the UAW gets pissed at Chrysler for some reason and calls a strike, there is no valid reason for Ford and GM to strike in support. I would prefer Ford and GM (WHICH ARE SEPERATE, DISTINCT, AUTONOMOUS COMPANIES) to be allowed to take advantage of the situation and put the hurt on their competition.

Likewise I am disgusted at seeing work slowdowns, walkouts, etc in OTHER STATES in support of Wisconsin's unions. I am also extremely disgusted to hear that some protesters are camping out at the homes of state legistators and following around the Governor's family. I don't believe those are caused or directed by the unions, but the whole situation is very dangerous.

Madison, WI is the Kremlin of the midwest. My brother lives in Milwaukee and can't wait to leave the state.

Here is a thread I posted that apparently nobody saw or cared about. It describes some of the crap going on in Massachusetts with public sector unions, and the fallout from decades of caving to strongarm tactics.

Parking attendants making >$110k/yr, tollbooth collectors make >$75k, with full pension retirement

Great points, I agree that taxes and regulations are the biggest factor in outsourcing.

[Tex]

I say this flippantly, but this is hilarious. These guys are turning into the tea party yellers of 2009. We are all just a bunch of hoarders trying to hang onto our stash.

Heh. This is nothing like the tea party, but it is funny to watch. What you're seeing is how leftists react to being out of power in a democracy.