Why do intellectuals oppose capitalism?

[wally]

Why do Mormons hate intellectuals? No need to answer. I know why.

This is funny, but evokes a thought that I've had for a while: intellectuals hate religion for the same reason that the 'common idiot' hates intellectuals (also see statmans description of the bureaucratic class which is generally from the 'best schools,' that 'knows better').

On one hand the intellectuals 'know better' because they are 'superior' intellectually, on the other religious leaders 'know better' because they are 'superior spiritually.'

It's a struggle for superior influence on the 'masses.'

[cowboy]

Capitalism doesn't necessarily ensure that members of society are maximally productive. Jobs are routinely outsourced to foreign countries. Factories are built in foreign countries. That's capitalism at its finest. Profit at any cost.

The debate isn't Capitalism -- Yes or No. The debate is about how unfettered we allow it to operate. How much we tame the beast.

You are countering an argument I didn't make. I did not assert that capitalism ensures maximal productivity. Rather, my point was/is that society is most prosperous when all of its members are maximally productive.

You cannot ignore human greed when considering any economic system, otherwise any observations are purely hypothetical. Greed motivates those with capital to risk it for more. The problems with capitalism that encumber the societal benefits of maximal productivity are:

1. Concentration of wealth
2. Profit outweighing other concerns (safety, morale, living wage)
3. Monopoly
4. Trust
5. Price-fixing
6. Oligarchy, especially when power is used to crush competition via "legal" means
7. Fascism
8. A typical ignoring of the needs of citizens who cannot contribute to societal productivity
9. Resistance to collective bargaining

I think you and I are working off of two different definitions of greed and probably different definitions of capitalism as well.

Your posts suggest that you believe greed is the overriding motivation for productivity. Using a standard definition of greed as the excessive desire to posess wealth, I will disagree. I think people are motivated to be productive for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with excess. Regardless, my point remains that placing a disproportionally large burden on the most productive members of society appears counter-productive.

To your point about the problems of capitalism, I'll only say that I see those as problems resulting from economic anarchy, but not necessarily problems specific to capitalism as I define it.

[LA Ute]

This is funny, but evokes a thought that I've had for a while: intellectuals hate religion for the same reason that the 'common idiot' hates intellectuals (also see statmans description of the bureaucratic class which is generally from the 'best schools,' that 'knows better').

On one hand the intellectuals 'know better' because they are 'superior' intellectually, on the other religious leaders 'know better' because they are 'superior spiritually.'

It's a struggle for superior influence on the 'masses.'

I know what you mean, and so does anyone who has run into a very righteous, spiritual engineer. They have me on both spirituality and intelligence. I hate people like that.

[wally]

I know what you mean, and so does anyone who has run into a very righteous, spiritual engineer. They have me on both spirituality and intelligence. I hate people like that.

Exactly. Wherever Lebowski goes, I will follow.

[wuapinmon]

. Regardless, my point remains that placing a disproportionally large burden on the most productive members of society appears counter-productive.

I reject your definition of productivity. Risking capital is not productivity. Increasing capital is the core of capitalism. The worker's production is productivity because it increases capital. The boss contributes to productivity, certainly, but they are in no way the "most productive" members of society. In fact, the wealthiest do the least amount of actual work, because, as they'll even admit, the money does the work for them. The boss is only as "productive" as her employees can be motivated to work combined with her own labor, but, again, I reject this definition of productive because it supposes that the labors of the underlings are less productive than the capital-risking labor of the greedy.

[Colly Wolly]

I reject your definition of productivity. Risking capital is not productivity. Increasing capital is the core of capitalism. The worker's production is productivity because it increases capital. The boss contributes to productivity, certainly, but they are in no way the "most productive" members of society. In fact, the wealthiest do the least amount of actual work, because, as they'll even admit, the money does the work for them. The boss is only as "productive" as her employees can be motivated to work combined with her own labor, but, again, I reject this definition of productive because it supposes that the labors of the underlings are less productive than the capital-risking labor of the greedy.

If they were "more productive", wouldn't they be compensated more favorably?

[wuapinmon]

If they were "more productive", wouldn't they be compensated more favorably?

No, that's one of the flaws. You can work your butt off, but that often goes unseen. An anecdotal point. When I worked for Pizza Hut in Provo (Canyon Rd, right by LES), I was a shift manager/driver. We had a "bulk rate" where someone could buy pies from us at $6 for 14" with 1 topping if they got 10 or more.

Of my own initiative, I looked up the addresses of most of the big companies in the our delivery area that had lots of low-wage employees: call centers, NuSkin, a bunch of those places down in East Bay. I prepared a letter at home, off the clock, that offered discounts to these companies for bulk orders. I then showed it to my boss, and he approved the mailing costs.

Damn if it wasn't a hit. We sold a lot of pizza. I can't remember anymore, but I think it was over $3k in a month, and that became repeat business. The area manager came for a visit. Did I get a raise? A reward? A promotion for my initiative?

I got a farking pin that said something like "Team player."

[LA Ute]

No, that's one of the flaws. You can work your butt off, but that often goes unseen. An anecdotal point. When I worked for Pizza Hut in Provo (Canyon Rd, right by LES), I was a shift manager/driver. We had a "bulk rate" where someone could buy pies from us at $6 for 14" with 1 topping if they got 10 or more.

Of my own initiative, I looked up the addresses of most of the big companies in the our delivery area that had lots of low-wage employees: call centers, NuSkin, a bunch of those places down in East Bay. I prepared a letter at home, off the clock, that offered discounts to these companies for bulk orders. I then showed it to my boss, and he approved the mailing costs.

Damn if it wasn't a hit. We sold a lot of pizza. I can't remember anymore, but I think it was over $3k in a month, and that became repeat business. The area manager came for a visit. Did I get a raise? A reward? A promotion for my initiative?

I got a farking pin that said something like "Team player."

The management of that Pizza Hut were idiots.

[Colly Wolly]

No, that's one of the flaws. You can work your butt off, but that often goes unseen. An anecdotal point. When I worked for Pizza Hut in Provo (Canyon Rd, right by LES), I was a shift manager/driver. We had a "bulk rate" where someone could buy pies from us at $6 for 14" with 1 topping if they got 10 or more.

Of my own initiative, I looked up the addresses of most of the big companies in the our delivery area that had lots of low-wage employees: call centers, NuSkin, a bunch of those places down in East Bay. I prepared a letter at home, off the clock, that offered discounts to these companies for bulk orders. I then showed it to my boss, and he approved the mailing costs.

Damn if it wasn't a hit. We sold a lot of pizza. I can't remember anymore, but I think it was over $3k in a month, and that became repeat business. The area manager came for a visit. Did I get a raise? A reward? A promotion for my initiative?

I got a farking pin that said something like "Team player."

Agree with LA Ute, your managers were idiots, but this doesn't represent a "flaw in the system". I think I understand the nobility of your intentions, but, ultimately, we have to fallback to neutral and measurable form of analysis. By failing to reward and promote your creativity and initiative, your managers have lost the benefit of your participation and assistance on a going-forward basis. You have since moved on to a different station that rewards your talents and efforts in a different way. It is their loss.

Why don't you take that great idea you had and use it as a fuel for an entrepreneurial venture that clearly has the potential for success given the real life results you have already observed? You will then not be reliant on the ability of others to adhere to standards of fairness.

[wuapinmon]

Agree with LA Ute, your managers were idiots, but this doesn't represent a "flaw in the system". I think I understand the nobility of your intentions, but, ultimately, we have to fallback to neutral and measurable form of analysis. By failing to reward and promote your creativity and initiative, your managers have lost the benefit of your participation and assistance on a going-forward basis. You have since moved on to a different station that rewards your talents and efforts in a different way. It is their loss.

Why don't you take that great idea you had and use it as a fuel for an entrepreneurial venture that clearly has the potential for success given the real life results you have already observed? You will then not be reliant on the ability of others to adhere to standards of fairness.

Ah, but there again comes the issue of access to capital. My case is anecdotal, but it's just like any system of power. Those in power do not like to share power. If view view power as capital, then sharing their capital with me (a raise) would've meant less for them. Hence, greed drives the system, and the greediest often succeed on the backs and efforts of others.

[Colly Wolly]

Ah, but there again comes the issue of access to capital. My case is anecdotal, but it's just like any system of power. Those in power do not like to share power. If view view power as capital, then sharing their capital with me (a raise) would've meant less for them. Hence, greed drives the system, and the greediest often succeed on the backs and efforts of others.

Capital flows naturally and without compulsory means to people like you who can think of ways to do it better, faster, or more effeciently.

[Moliere]

Ah, but there again comes the issue of access to capital. My case is anecdotal, but it's just like any system of power. Those in power do not like to share power. If view view power as capital, then sharing their capital with me (a raise) would've meant less for them. Hence, greed drives the system, and the greediest often succeed on the backs and efforts of others.

You are looking at this in a vacuum (and a very poor one at that). Do you still work for these managers? I'm guessing the guy/lady they hired after you left was not quite as smart as you. In fact, I bet that when sales went back down to where they were prior to your idea they probably looked around and said "Crap, where's that Wuap guy? We could use a good idea to get business going again."

[Uncle Ted]

No, that's one of the flaws. You can work your butt off, but that often goes unseen. An anecdotal point. When I worked for Pizza Hut in Provo (Canyon Rd, right by LES), I was a shift manager/driver. We had a "bulk rate" where someone could buy pies from us at $6 for 14" with 1 topping if they got 10 or more.

Of my own initiative, I looked up the addresses of most of the big companies in the our delivery area that had lots of low-wage employees: call centers, NuSkin, a bunch of those places down in East Bay. I prepared a letter at home, off the clock, that offered discounts to these companies for bulk orders. I then showed it to my boss, and he approved the mailing costs.

Damn if it wasn't a hit. We sold a lot of pizza. I can't remember anymore, but I think it was over $3k in a month, and that became repeat business. The area manager came for a visit. Did I get a raise? A reward? A promotion for my initiative?

I got a farking pin that said something like "Team player."

Damn... If I was you and this happened I would have taken the idea (and a lot of pizza slut's secrets about their sauce) to the competition and offered my expert services to them. If a company doesn't value me then I don't feel so bad screwing them. As a boss/owner I always tried to treat my valued employees well. Those are the guys that make the company successful and if they leave then so does the success.

[byu71]

Whenever I get into these discussions, I just ask what is the difference between N. Korea and S. Korea. Leaders of both countries are greedy. So what is the difference. Is the ground in S. Korea more fertile.

[Colly Wolly]

Whenever I get into these discussions, I just ask what is the difference between N. Korea and S. Korea. Leaders of both countries are greedy. So what is the difference. Is the ground in S. Korea more fertile.

Yup. We can be equally poor or unequally rich.