Data Centers - NIMBY or YIMBY?

[Moliere]

Perhaps both, but mainly the former. Oil reservoirs are much much deeper than the water we withdraw from aquifers. So the fracking occurs in deep rock, not the shallow water bearing strata where we pump water. The risk of cross contamination is miniscule.

Fracking has been one of the greatest inventions ever. We are able to pull massive quantities of oil from reservoirs that were long considered tapped out.

If there’s a groundwater issue with fracking, it’s due to the pipe and cementing not being done properly and the well leaking. But those things are tightly regulated and that’s not really an issue. And even if a well leaked it would have to leak at the exact place of the groundwater table, which wouldn’t be very likely.

Groundwater issues with fracking was mostly an issue that got a lot of steam from environmentalists that just wanted to shut down oil production. It was kind of effective given that many people still think it’s dirty and causes peoples faucets to ignite.

[Moliere]

And we now produce the most oil in the world, more than 2x the Saudis' production.

[falafel]

Probably because the energy isn’t an issue given that the pipeline that runs next to the proposed site has plenty of capacity for the data center…well unless they go to the final phase which wouldn’t be for a long long time.

It does seem to be somewhat of an issue. At least to Utahns. I mean, this shit is hitting the Guardian.

A plan to create one of the world’s largest datacenters, a gargantuan project spanning an area more than twice the size of Manhattan, has provoked a furious public backlash in Utah amid concerns over its vast energy use and impact upon the state’s stressed water supplies.

The Stratos artificial intelligence datacenter footprint will cover more than 40,000 acres (62 sq miles) over three sites in Box Elder county in north-western Utah. The facility will require about 9GW of power, which is more than the entire state of Utah currently consumes, and suck up a significant amount of water in an area that has been hit by severe drought in recent years.

But these jobs will not outweigh the longer-term impacts to Utah and beyond, critics argue. Stratos is expected to raise the state’s planet-heating pollution by about 50% by consuming a huge amount of energy and water to power and cool itself, according to one impact analysis.

The network of industrial-scale fans needed to cool the datacenter’s hot pipes will result in so much waste heat that it could raise daytime temperatures in the surrounding Hansel valley by 2F to 5F (1.1C to 2.7C) and night-time temperatures by 8F to 12F (4.4C to 6.6C), according to an analysis by Rob Davies, a physics professor at Utah State University.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...enter-backlash

[All-American]

It does seem to be somewhat of an issue. At least to Utahns. I mean, this shit is hitting the Guardian.





https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...enter-backlash

That Hansel valley. It’s so hot right now.

[falafel]

That Hansel valley. It’s so hot right now.

[frank ryan]

It does seem to be somewhat of an issue. At least to Utahns. I mean, this shit is hitting the Guardian.





https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...enter-backlash

Those sources are part of Chinese sleeper cells. Pay no attention

[Omaha 680]

This whole data center thing is blowing up to the extent that it probably deserves a thread. They hysteria is off the charts. Bernie/AOC have introduced an anti-DC bill to congress. And Matt Walsh is on the anti-DC bandwagon:

Embedded Tweet

"Lightening"...*sigh*.

Data centers aren't inherently bad.

The water issue is overblown and rife with armchair experts and blatant misinformation.

The power issue is real ranging from potential rate increases for the public to real infrastructure bottlenecks that will be hard to overcome.

The power issue isn't really real because the overall data center buildout race is a bubble that will pop. The thousands of megawatts of data center capacity that have been announced will not come online for many years, if ever.

While potentially very useful for certain sectors, AI is not what is being promised by the Sam Altmans of the world. And overreliance on it by non-experts will make people dumb.

Even though AI is not what is being promised, it is transformational and not going away. We shouldn't fear it but we also shouldn't trust its biggest cheerleaders/merchants. It is also important for data and national security. But the market will take care of right sizing the current cash dumpster-fire behemoths in time without the need for Shark Tank weirdos to show us the way.

There, I fixed it.

[Jeff Lebowski]

"Lightening"...*sigh*.

Data centers aren't inherently bad.

The water issue is overblown and rife with armchair experts and blatant misinformation.

The power issue is real ranging from potential rate increases for the public to real infrastructure bottlenecks that will be hard to overcome.

The power issue isn't really real because the overall data center buildout race is a bubble that will pop. The thousands of megawatts of data center capacity that have been announced will not come online for many years, if ever.

While potentially very useful for certain sectors, AI is not what is being promised by the Sam Altmans of the world. And overreliance on it by non-experts will make people dumb.

Even though AI is not what is being promised, it is transformational and not going away. We shouldn't fear it but we also shouldn't trust its biggest cheerleaders/merchants. It is also important for data and national security. But the market will take care of right sizing the current cash dumpster-fire behemoths in time without the need for Shark Tank weirdos to show us the way.

There, I fixed it.

This particular data center will be built over a long period of time and over several phases. Yes, the market will adapt, and the infrastructure will adapt as well.

The funny thing is, all this hysteria will accelerate. Elon Musk’s idea of putting data centers in space. Imagine the additional fortune he could make doing that. If you can get the launch cost down and the technological issues hammered out, it solves a ton of problems. No NIMBY, solar power, cooling provided by the vacuum of space, etc. Sounds crazy at first, but it’s a brilliant idea.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Those sources are part of Chinese sleeper cells. Pay no attention

So if the guardian reprints blatant misinformation, that is proof that the Chinese aren’t promoting misinformation as well? Brilliant logic, Frank.

The land they purchased covers 40,000 acres, but the actual buildings will only cover around 2000 acres. Most of it will remain vacant.

It will not consume any additional water. The west operates under a system of prior appropriation water rights. The water they are using is based on water shares purchased from the prior owners of the ranch. There is no net change in actual water usage.

And I call B.S. on that thermodynamic analysis.

[Pelado]

So if the guardian reprints blatant misinformation, that is proof that the Chinese aren’t promoting misinformation as well? Brilliant logic, Frank.

The land they purchased covers 40,000 acres, but the actual buildings will only cover around 2000 acres. Most of it will remain vacant.

It will not consume any additional water. The west operates under a system of prior appropriation water rights. The water they are using is based on water shares purchased from the prior owners of the ranch. There is no net change in actual water usage.

And I call B.S. on that thermodynamic analysis.

Is that the one done by the Utah State professor. Yeah, makes sense.

[chrisrenrut]

Is that the one done by the Utah State professor. Yeah, makes sense.

Cache Valley is just to the east of the site. They will receive the much of the pollution from natural gas’s power generation as well as the heat waste drift. So the USU professor’s results might be biased.

[frank ryan]

So if the guardian reprints blatant misinformation, that is proof that the Chinese aren’t promoting misinformation as well? Brilliant logic, Frank.

The land they purchased covers 40,000 acres, but the actual buildings will only cover around 2000 acres. Most of it will remain vacant.

It will not consume any additional water. The west operates under a system of prior appropriation water rights. The water they are using is based on water shares purchased from the prior owners of the ranch. There is no net change in actual water usage.

And I call B.S. on that thermodynamic analysis.

You are implying things I never said. I don't believe Chinese sleeper cells were activated and bused in to complain about the data center. That is what I'm poking fun at.

[Omaha 680]

This particular data center will be built over a long period of time and over several phases. Yes, the market will adapt, and the infrastructure will adapt as well.

The funny thing is, all this hysteria will accelerate. Elon Musk’s idea of putting data centers in space. Imagine the additional fortune he could make doing that. If you can get the launch cost down and the technological issues hammered out, it solves a ton of problems. No NIMBY, solar power, cooling provided by the vacuum of space, etc. Sounds crazy at first, but it’s a brilliant idea.

It is only brilliant if the revenue generation from AI justifies the massive cost (even after assuming improved tech reducing launch costs) of putting this stuff in space. If the revenue doesnt appear it would just be AI companies paying SpaceX to launch their stuff into space using money generated by renting compute capacity to....AI companies. Absent massive adoption by consumers and businesses at much higher price points, Musk's plan would be just like the current trajectory except he would join Nvidia as the only peope who are making out like bandits on the AI promise.

I think AI is amazing for what it is and am glad some people have found good business uses for it. But it is a fact that even enterprise users are currently paying a fraction of the cost of the product. When hyperscalers get sick of lighting cash on fire based on promises that world adoption of AI en masse is right around the corner, it will crash and we will then learn what AI can really be. And i think it will be a healthy, necessary correction.

I dont like the hysteria, especially the points that are not backed by any data or science. But I do understand the masses' distrust and frustration with the AI titans because when I look at the state of the AI industry as currently constituted it appears to be one of the biggest financial circle jerks of all time.

[Jeff Lebowski]

It is only brilliant if the revenue generation from AI justifies the massive cost (even after assuming improved tech reducing launch costs) of putting this stuff in space. If the revenue doesnt appear it would just be AI companies paying SpaceX to launch their stuff into space using money generated by renting compute capacity to....AI companies. Absent massive adoption by consumers and businesses at much higher price points, Musk's plan would be just like the current trajectory except he would join Nvidia as the only peope who are making out like bandits on the AI promise.

I think AI is amazing for what it is and am glad some people have found good business uses for it. But it is a fact that even enterprise users are currently paying a fraction of the cost of the product. When hyperscalers get sick of lighting cash on fire based on promises that world adoption of AI en masse is right around the corner, it will crash and we will then learn what AI can really be. And i think it will be a healthy, necessary correction.

I dont like the hysteria, especially the points that are not backed by any data or science. But I do understand the masses' distrust and frustration with the AI titans because when I look at the state of the AI industry as currently constituted it appears to be one of the biggest financial circle jerks of all time.

Big Short guy Michael Burry agrees with you. And he has correctly predicted 50 of the last 2 market crashes!

[Omaha 680]

Big Short guy Michael Burry agrees with you. And he has correctly predicted 50 of the last 2 market crashes!

Haha! Touche. I will definitely be taking a su-wish when it happens though.