Did you see this Trib article?

[wuapinmon]

For the record I am not and never have been "thudwhack."

My answer to you is that it would be based upon how one defines "hurt." I believe America is that city set upon a hill. I hate the concept of a fence that seeks to keep the benefits of economic and political freedom isolated for those lucky enough to be born here. America is not about pure bloodlines but about the idea that one can improve their lot in life for themselves and their children, the sacrifices immigrants, both legal and illegal, go through to get here reinforces that romantic vision I have of America. I believe that the opportunities unleashed by liberty and freedom are endless and cannot express my frustration when I see a fence on our border. That clashes with my vision of what this place is about.

Saying that there is some cost undoubtedly collectively shared by the American people to pay for some of the progressive safety net programs that illegals and/or their legal children participate. While I would like to believe in my romantic version, the reality might be that while it is a city set upon a hill, the new blood so neccesary to remind us all of where we all came from must be better regulated. If our society is going to extend these safety net programs, it must be done in a way that ensures we have the resources to do such.

IMO, immigration both legal and illegal keeps the flame of liberty burning bright but such platitudes don't pay the bills and the bills are beginning to concern many of us.

Ya know, knuckledragger, this is one of the best posts/thoughts that I've read anywhere in a long time. While I might not share a couple of your concerns, you have expressed yourself in such a way as to leave no doubt about your sincerity, generosity, and magnanimity.

[Tim]

Tim, I have to say, you're off base here. IPU is a good guy, and "filled with hate" is not a phrase I would associate with him, or anyone else here for that matter.

I love IPU! I barbecued with him for a number of years. I've been to games with him. He's my friend on facebook. This is just politics talk!

[Tim]

Timmy is an enlightened liberal and as such they love to hear opinions that agree with them and know anyone who doesn't agree with them is clearly motivated by sinister sentiments. Because if their motivations were pure, as theirs are, then they too would be enlightened and see the that "there is a right way to live and be happy!"

Napper, I consider you a friend for three reasons, and three reasons alone:

1. You practically made me! I was a nobody before you (and PAC) brought fame to me with your beautiful descriptions of my golf attire and skill set.
2. The Navy's for pansies. My dad was on submarines for 8 years. Pansies, all of them.
3. That one time when you saw me crossing the street at the Salt Lake airport, you honked at me and waved, and we chatted for a moment. It made my day!

[dabrockster]

I love IPU! I barbecued with him for a number of years. I've been to games with him. He's my friend on facebook. This is just politics talk!

As one how used to have a cordial relationship with you (However, we can at least speak to each other on occasion now), I would say "Just Politics Talk" can be damaging and words like "filled with immoral hate" is pretty strong..

[Flystripper]

As one how used to have a cordial relationship with you (However, we can at least speak to each other on occasion now), I would say "Just Politics Talk" can be damaging and words like"filled with immoral hate" is a pretty strong..

Yeah I cringed a bit when I read that, but I am not familiar with their RL friendship.

[il Padrino Ute]

You've now extended your chain of lies by suggesting that I'm in favor of illegal immigration and that I don't think there's an issue. Back to that tricky little devil called "common sense" that keeps baffling you, I guess: Just because I don't think illegal immigration is destroying our country doesn't mean that I support illegal immigration. I have always favored legal immigration. And just because I don't think it's a black and white issue like you do doesn't mean that I think it's not an issue. I simply think the issue is complex and multi-faceted, and there are so many elements within it that it's irrational to try and determine if there could even BE a right answer to the question of how to solve it.

I support an immigration system that allows the labor market to be the determining factor in deciding how many people should come in to the system. I refuse to place the full burden of the issue on people who came looking for work when it was available and would've entered legally if we had made a practical way for them to do so. So I support first and foremost a revised immigration system that makes it easier for people to work enter legally when there is work available. That is what I support. Do you support that?

Don't bring religion into this, IPU. I could easily quote the words of the prophets or scriptures to try and dispute your views, but that's just a tacky and cheap form of dialogue. Stop doing it.

I tolerate all types of politics and beliefs. I have no issue with your politics, I have an issue with how you spread them through the use of lies and sensationalism. I repeat for the umpteenth time on this and other sites: I am completely tolerant of your political views. I am completely intolerant of your use of lies, hatred, and fear to spread those views.

Tim, I'm just using the common sense and logic that you use to spread your lies (or perhaps your opinion which in truth are lies) about me. I say something and you make all kinds of assumptions about what you think I'm saying.

If you don't like what I have to say, don't respond to my posts.

[il Padrino Ute]

if they have a fake social security number and are living below the poverty level what taxes are they not contributing?

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. Are you saying that if they're living below the poverty level they are not paying taxes? If so, then they are not paying taxes, no?

[Flystripper]

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. Are you saying that if they're living below the poverty level they are not paying taxes? If so, then they are not paying taxes, no?

what I was saying was for illegals that are using stolen ss# they are paying social security, medicare, and medicade. Theses guys may not pay income tax but if they were legal I don't think they would be paying any income tax anyway.

[il Padrino Ute]

what I was saying was for illegals that are using stolen ss# they are paying social security, medicare, and medicade. Theses guys may not pay income tax but if they were legal I don't think they would be paying any income tax anyway.

Ok, understood and I agree that they would be paying those taxes. Of course, while social security, medicare and medicade are taxes, I tend to not really think of them as much of a tax as income taxes because of the word "income".

[byu71]

Napper, I consider you a friend for three reasons, and three reasons alone:

1. You practically made me! I was a nobody before you (and PAC) brought fame to me with your beautiful descriptions of my golf attire and skill set.

I get so freaking tired of hearing about PAC and napper this and that. Half the stuff they get credit for originated with me. It is just that I also take on the tough issues so don't come accross so warm and fuzzy.

Sorry Tim, you aren't the only one who gives credit to those two for stuff that orginated with me.

Oh and napper is right. You are a pie in the sky liberal who has visions of doing really nice things and thinks the money to do it will magically appear.

[Flystripper]

Ok, understood and I agree that they would be paying those taxes. Of course, while social security, medicare and medicade are taxes, I tend to not really think of them as much of a tax as income taxes because of the word "income".

well they are tied to your income but yeah. Just to be honest about the whole situation these illegals are not pulling down wages that would result in massive taxes....I would wager that if these guys filled out a tax return most would pay nothing. On a related note, if these illegals have any taxes withheld when using their fake SS# they also don't file returns and the government keeps the taxes.

[Indy Coug]

well they are tied to your income but yeah. Just to be honest about the whole situation these illegals are not pulling down wages that would result in massive taxes....I would wager that if these guys filled out a tax return most would pay nothing. On a related note, if these illegals have any taxes withheld when using their fake SS# they also don't file returns and the government keeps the taxes.

They're also a lot more likely to be on government assistance and therefore receive well in excess of any meager sums contributed by their employer on their behalf.

[The Fourth Nephite]

Well, only a moron goes behind someone else offering the same services. You're not griping about illegals, you're griping about competition.

Do you ever think before you type, or do you just go with the first thought that pops into your head?

If I followed behind non-illegal tree trimmers, I did just fine. I was very competitive.

I couldn't compete with illegals because it wasn't a level playing field. They weren't licensed, insured or bonded. They were paying their workers less than minimum wage.

So, as I said before, illegals definately impacted me in a negative way.

[Hallelujah]

if they have a fake social security number and are living below the poverty level what taxes are they not contributing?

Geez, why not fill us in on the non-hurt illegals are putting on California. This I have to see.

Go ahead. We're all waiting.

[Hallelujah]

what I was saying was for illegals that are using stolen ss# they are paying social security, medicare, and medicade. Theses guys may not pay income tax but if they were legal I don't think they would be paying any income tax anyway.

So stealing/forging SS is not a crime in your SimCity?