He deserves his own thread. Tim Ballard is a wanker.

[frank ryan]

Agree. In the US the membership is to the right politically of the leadership. Not sure it's true of church members outside the US.

Among latino members and some European members, there are plenty of Social Democrats, and even Socialists on the roles. Africa is likely the same. The church should be big tent. People matter more than the political parties they adhere to. Cleon Skousen's paranoid ramblings about communists under every bush and Glenn Beck's emotionally manipulative pleas are not doctrinal or sacred.

[BigFatMeanie]

I serve on the board of a charitable foundation. I can tell you from personal experience that when our foundation has made donations to various not-profit orgs and causes that we get inundated with solicitations from other non-profit orgs and causes. Their fundraising efforts are voracious and relentless. There is an entire industry out there devoted to collecting/collating/selling lists of charitable organizations, board members, contacts, etc. and an entire industry built up to solicit donations from them. If you are in the business of gathering donations (as opposed to providing them) then it's super easy to figure out where the money flows from and to go after it.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I serve on the board of a charitable foundation. I can tell you from personal experience that when our foundation has made donations to various not-profit orgs and causes that we get inundated with solicitations from other non-profit orgs and causes. Their fundraising efforts are voracious and relentless. There is an entire industry out there devoted to collecting/collating/selling lists of charitable organizations, board members, contacts, etc. and an entire industry built up to solicit donations from them. If you are in the business of gathering donations (as opposed to providing them) then it's super easy to figure out where the money flows from and to go after it.

Exactly. The notion that someone needs to tell folks like OUR/Ballard where the rich wards are because they can't figure it out through simple demographics is really funny.

[Non Sequitur]

That's an interesting new rhetorical device.

"Person X probably voted for Trump, so we can assume that Person X has no ethics."

Makes for a tidy little world view, I suppose.

I wouldn't say no ethics, but I would put my money on ethically challenged. I know it's swell to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but there are certain realities that exist. In the real world if you run into a racist and are forced to bet money on whether that person voted for Trump or Biden, how are you going to bet? That's not a trick question. That's just the way it is.

[Bo Diddley]

I wouldn't say no ethics, but I would put my money on ethically challenged. I know it's swell to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but there are certain realities that exist. In the real world if you run into a racist and are forced to bet money on whether that person voted for Trump or Biden, how are you going to bet? That's not a trick question. That's just the way it is.

So what are you saying? I don't want to connect dots where you don't intend. Do you think the Q12 are ethically challenged? Also, somewhat counter to your assumption, DHO made the case for conservatives voting for a liberal candidate in conference.

[The_Tick]

I wouldn't say no ethics, but I would put my money on ethically challenged. I know it's swell to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but there are certain realities that exist. In the real world if you run into a racist and are forced to bet money on whether that person voted for Trump or Biden, how are you going to bet? That's not a trick question. That's just the way it is.

Man...you have a very jaded view on things. There isn't much in this world that I would put money on, because I just don't trust folks enough.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I wouldn't say no ethics, but I would put my money on ethically challenged. I know it's swell to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but there are certain realities that exist. In the real world if you run into a racist and are forced to bet money on whether that person voted for Trump or Biden, how are you going to bet? That's not a trick question. That's just the way it is.

You know who else likes to lump people into groups and make judgments about them? I will give you a hint: the word is in your post.

[old_gregg]

You know who else likes to lump people into groups and make judgments about them? I will give you a hint: the word is in your post.

but there are certain groups into which people self select about which one can make judgments, though? if someone is willing to hold their nose (at best) and pledge support for a person that is morally repugnant, one can make a valid value judgment about that person. a vote for trump is not necessarily that, but there is some tipping point where it's not as easily dismissible as that. if a leader of a church dedicated in all respects to certain values casts a vote in favor of a person who embodies the diametric opposite of all those values, that seems like a fair criticism.

[Non Sequitur]

So what are you saying? I don't want to connect dots where you don't intend. Do you think the Q12 are ethically challenged? Also, somewhat counter to your assumption, DHO made the case for conservatives voting for a liberal candidate in conference.

I think the ones that voted for Trump are. I have siblings who voted for Trump, and I don't think they're horrible people, but I do think that they have moral blind spots.

[Non Sequitur]

You know who else likes to lump people into groups and make judgments about them? I will give you a hint: the word is in your post.

I don't apologize for lumping people into groups and making judgments about them. I freely admit to making judgments about the group of people who are convicted sex offenders. I also make judgments about the group of people who choose to have swastikas' tattooed on their chests. Or people who show up at neo-Nazi rallies carrying tiki torches. Or people who storm the capitol. And yes, people who vote for Trump. By their fruits you shall know them.

[Bo Diddley]

I think the ones that voted for Trump are. I have siblings who voted for Trump, and I don't think they're horrible people, but I do think that they have moral blind spots.

Which ones did that?

[Jeff Lebowski]

but there are certain groups into which people self select about which one can make judgments, though? if someone is willing to hold their nose (at best) and pledge support for a person that is morally repugnant, one can make a valid value judgment about that person. a vote for trump is not necessarily that, but there is some tipping point where it's not as easily dismissible as that. if a leader of a church dedicated in all respects to certain values casts a vote in favor of a person who embodies the diametric opposite of all those values, that seems like a fair criticism.

We don't have any evidence of who MRB or the other apostles voted for so I don't understand your argument here. Yes, if someone votes for Trump, you can draw a number of conclusions from that action/behavior. But NS said that top LDS leaders are old, conservative, and white and therefore probably voted for trump and therefore we can safely assume they are corrupt. To shorten the equation: old/conservative/white => corrupt. The funny thing is, this kind of lazy, tribalistic thinking is the hallmark of MAGA and the main problem with modern political discourse.

Finally, as an old, conservative, white person who has been anti-trump from the moment he entered politics, I respectfully ask NS to kiss my ass.

[Bo Diddley]

We don't have any evidence of who MRB or the other apostles voted for so I don't understand your argument here. Yes, if someone votes for Trump, you can draw a number of conclusions from that action/behavior. But NS said that top LDS leaders are old, conservative, and white and therefore probably voted for trump and therefore we can safely assume they are corrupt. To shorten the equation: old/conservative/white => corrupt. The funny thing is, this kind of lazy, tribalistic thinking is the hallmark of MAGA and the main problem with modern political discourse.

Finally, as an old, conservative, white person who has been anti-trump from the moment he entered politics, I respectfully ask NS to kiss my ass.

You're not old. My dad is old, conservative and white. He has never voted for Trump.

Edit: I'll add that it is likely the values that come from being LDS that turned him off of Trump. By the way, didn't I read something in the news about Trump "having a Mormon problem"? Wouldn't that lead you to believe that the Q12 would be less likely to vote for Trump, being members of that demographic?

[smokymountainrain]

an entire discussion on whether or not we can or should judge Q12 who voted for trump and we don't even know if any of them did. fun.

ftr, anybody who voted for trump should be judged harshly and that is not up for debate.

[Bo Diddley]

an entire discussion on whether or not we can or should judge Q12 who voted for trump and we don't even know if any of them did. fun.

ftr, anybody who voted for trump should be judged harshly and that is not up for debate.