I can't believe passions are getting so high ...

[Indy Coug]

Have you ever spent an entire winter in Canada? remeber, it is farther north than North Dakota.

Move to Vancouver and pretend you're in Seattle.

[statman]

I'm sure they are. The point is that the US economy has had a long expansion like no developed economy has in the history of the world. Access to cheap labor fueled by illegal immigration is one of the primary drivers of this long expansion. Social program costs for illegals not paying taxes is a pennies on the dollar issue compared to this boon.

Couldn't disagree more. Technologial innovation, utilization of complex data technologies, low, predictable taxes and access to cheap and flexible financing lead to the long expansion.

Cheap labor lead to higher than normal economic rents for those willing to run the risk of employing them, and access to cheap vegetables, cheap burgers, cheap landscaping, and cheap home remodeling.

Illegal aliens were NOT at the core of the boom of the 90's & 00's. They helped make our lives a little more comfortable, and encouraged us to do a little less work at home, spend a little less at the grocery store, spend a little more time with our kids and eat out a little more. Not that any of those things are bad, but the boom would've happened without them...

[jay santos]

Couldn't disagree more. Technologial innovation, utilization of complex data technologies, low, predictable taxes and access to cheap and flexible financing lead to the long expansion.

Cheap labor lead to higher than normal economic rents for those willing to run the risk of employing them, and access to cheap vegetables, cheap burgers, cheap landscaping, and cheap home remodeling.

Illegal aliens were NOT at the core of the boom of the 90's & 00's. They helped make our lives a little more comfortable, and encouraged us to do a little less work at home, spend a little less at the grocery store, spend a little more time with our kids and eat out a little more. Not that any of those things are bad, but the boom would've happened without them...

4% growing economies need 4% growing labor markets. You don't sustain that over 20 years without having babies or immigrants. You get gains with efficiency and productivity, but you also need workers.

[Indy Coug]

4% growing economies need 4% growing labor markets. You don't sustain that over 20 years without having babies or immigrants. You get gains with efficiency and productivity, but you also need workers.

If you get gains with efficiency, then you don't need 4% labor growth to sustain 4% growing economies.

[jay santos]

If you get gains with efficiency, then you don't need 4% labor growth to sustain 4% growing economies.

Yes, I get that. US economic growth was fueled by a lot of things including productivity, but I think it's commonly believed access to labor primarily due to immigration was a very large part of it.

[wuapinmon]

I think that if the LDS church apologized for racism in the Book of Mormon against native Americans, and for racist teachings and practices generally, including a full and forthright explanation of the error of its ways, it would help.

Laban asked for it, man.

Canada, not a bad idea. Maybe we should head north to Canada. Let the mexicans move here and we will move north to Canada. Why aren't the Mexicans just heading on through US and into Canada. I am asking this seriously.

Dude, that's a long long drive. And, are you sure they aren't?

It sounds like this list was most likely compiled by someone with access to government data. This and other reasons is why I always list my race on any government form (including the census) as 'American' or 'Human'.

It's charming when IPU does it.

Decrease in crime in areas where illegals live and positive affects of black markets on price as analyzed by any economist are all I have to offer. These people aren't criminals and they help to keep inflation in check by providing a floor to wages which is below the legal floor.

I don't know, so I'm asking....do you have any data on how the children of these 'illegals' fare as it relates to their crime stats, earning potential, and their legal status due to being born here creating a burden on the system because their parents didn't pay anything into it?

[KillerDog]

I don't know, so I'm asking....do you have any data on how the children of these 'illegals' fare as it relates to their crime stats, earning potential, and their legal status due to being born here creating a burden on the system because their parents didn't pay anything into it?

To be honest, all I know about the children of illegal aliens is that they are citizens so questions regarding them seem irrelevant to me.

[statman]

4% growing economies need 4% growing labor markets. You don't sustain that over 20 years without having babies or immigrants. You get gains with efficiency and productivity, but you also need workers.

Given:
in the long-run, real economic growth is dependent on population growth (per Jay Santos), and
real economic output has increased by 221% since 1980, and
US population was 226 million in 1980.

Therefore:

The US population in 2010 must be at least 500 million.

But since our pupulation is just over 300 million now...

One of these things is not like the others...

the Jay Santos theorem is off by just a skoosh. If it were true, we would have had to have had an increase of ~280 million in population to manage such growth. But it really is only up by about 70 million. Only 80% error...

And this doesn't account for things like an aging population with fewer workers per capita, etc. It's pretty safe to assume that the average American worker now produces close to double the real economic output per hour worked that a worker in 1980 produced...

[mUUser]

I think that if the LDS church apologized for racism in the Book of Mormon against native Americans, and for racist teachings and practices generally, including a full and forthright explanation of the error of its ways, it would help.

This makes sense, but only if given in the form of a rap to Sugarhill Gang's Rappers Delight -- not so easy -- I think that's what's holding things up.

[statman]

Yes, I get that. US economic growth was fueled by a lot of things including productivity, but I think it's commonly believed access to labor primarily due to immigration was a very large part of it.

Commonly by YOU maybe. But it's simply not true. Our illegal workers are among the LEAST efficient laborers in our economy. The idea that we import them to do things we won't do, although unpopular in a recession, is accurate. Who among us is willing to put rooves on houses in TX in July for $8 an hour?

We've all benefited from cheap labor. But it's cheap for a reason. It's not very efficient. If it weren't for cheap labor, we'd find more expensive, but more efficient ways to do things like harvesting vegetables, building rooves on homes, doing landscaping, etc.

[Uncle Ted]

It's charming when IPU does it.

Please note that I said this one of the reasons. Another reason... I actually don't know what my "race" is. There is a good amount of missing genealogy in my family tree. Take a look at some of my pics and give me your best guess.

[jay santos]

Given:
in the long-run, real economic growth is dependent on population growth (per Jay Santos), and
real economic output has increased by 221% since 1980, and
US population was 226 million in 1980.

Therefore:

The US population in 2010 must be at least 500 million.

But since our pupulation is just over 300 million now...

One of these things is not like the others...

the Jay Santos theorem is off by just a skoosh. If it were true, we would have had to have had an increase of ~280 million in population to manage such growth. But it really is only up by about 70 million. Only 80% error...

And this doesn't account for things like an aging population with fewer workers per capita, etc. It's pretty safe to assume that the average American worker now produces close to double the real economic output per hour worked that a worker in 1980 produced...

K, obviously I know labor does not correlate 100% to economic growth. And I acknowledged productivity was part of it.

But really you won't find many economists that won't tell you the labor situation was one of the primary drivers for this growth and why USA was able to sustain such a long expansion compared to other developed nations.

[Indy Coug]

Please note that I said this one of the reasons. Another reason... I actually don't know what my "race" is. There is a good amount of missing genealogy in my family tree. Take a look at some of my pics and give me your best guess.

OK, well that spares me asking you a question about that very thing after seeing a picture of you.

[RobinFinderson]

Commonly by YOU maybe. But it's simply not true. Our illegal workers are among the LEAST efficient laborers in our economy. The idea that we import them to do things we won't do, although unpopular in a recession, is accurate. Who among us is willing to put rooves on houses in TX in July for $8 an hour?

Illegals charge more like $12-15 for that kind of work.

[New Mexican Disaster]

Given:
in the long-run, real economic growth is dependent on population growth (per Jay Santos), and
real economic output has increased by 221% since 1980, and
US population was 226 million in 1980.

Therefore:

The US population in 2010 must be at least 500 million.

But since our pupulation is just over 300 million now...

One of these things is not like the others...

the Jay Santos theorem is off by just a skoosh. If it were true, we would have had to have had an increase of ~280 million in population to manage such growth. But it really is only up by about 70 million. Only 80% error...

And this doesn't account for things like an aging population with fewer workers per capita, etc. It's pretty safe to assume that the average American worker now produces close to double the real economic output per hour worked that a worker in 1980 produced...

Well you are a hell of a lot closer to your number when you strip out the longer life spans and the number of retirees and children. The labor pool is the number to look at, not the population.

I think you are correct that innovation and improved productivity helped to grow the economy. However, approximately 70% of the economy is consumer spending related and much of our economic growth is related to huge gains in this area (and the declination in the savings rate). With growing numbers of workers are growing numbers of consumers and this contributes to economic growth as well.