Big deal in Constitutional Gun Law

[Hallelujah]

I almost left that out, figuring it would be the focal point. Almost. I could respond to this pointing out privilege vs right, but I am sure we would dance in a circle. I see your point and it is fair enough. I hope you see mine. I am out of here now that Hallelujah has chimed in with his brilliant analogies.

You guys easily get your panties in a bunch. Correct me if I am wrong (on your subject of 'rights'), but isn't it true? You have a right to become a citizen in the US even if you are here illegally? I'll explain that to you if you still don't get it.

[il Padrino Ute]

You guys easily get your panties in a bunch. Correct me if I am wrong (on your subject of 'rights'), but isn't it true? You have a right to become a citizen in the US even if you are here illegally? I'll explain that to you if you still don't get it.

How is a baby born on US soil here illegally?

I think there should be some sort of reform on what constitutes a naturally born citizen, but right now, the law pretty much says that any child born in the United States is a citizen.

[Pheidippides]

Given that there is no right to drive a car in the BoR or anywhere for that matter, I will just say that I agree with the first paragraph and that there should be some regulation. It should be fair and reasonable regulation and not an attempt to skirt a decision handed down by SCOTUS. At least that is how it appears, just bitter politicians. I am a big proponent of firearm training, and have zero problem with it being required. I am also a fan of background checks that can be done instantly, in my experience. I am not a big proponent of firearm registration or $125 processing fees, $15 registration fees or limits on the number of fire arms to law abiding citizens.

I am in favor of:

1. Mandatory Training
2. Mandatory licensing/registration
3. Strict liability to the owner of the firearms for things that are done with that firearm (exception if the firearm is stolen).
4. Reasonable processing fess ($15 is a reasonable fee. $125 is not a reasonable fee - that is a tax.)
5. Restrictions on who can own firearms (very limited in scope - criminals, mentally ill, etc.).

I am not in favor of:

1. Restrictions on the number of firearms.
2. Restrictions on the type of firearms (to a point - the thought of Hallelujah with a .50 cal terrifies me).

I used to be a card-carrying member of the NRA, although I suspect some of the above would have my report card at a C. I currently own at least two firearms (the classification of a third is tricky) with a plan to buy two more.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I am in favor of:

1. Mandatory Training
2. Mandatory licensing/registration
3. Strict liability to the owner of the firearms for things that are done with that firearm (exception if the firearm is stolen).
4. Reasonable processing fess ($15 is a reasonable fee. $125 is not a reasonable fee - that is a tax.)
5. Restrictions on who can own firearms (very limited in scope - criminals, mentally ill, etc.).

I am not in favor of:

1. Restrictions on the number of firearms.
2. Restrictions on the type of firearms (to a point - the thought of Hallelujah with a .50 cal terrifies me).

I used to be a card-carrying member of the NRA, although I suspect some of the above would have my report card at a C. I currently own at least two firearms (the classification of a third is tricky) with a plan to buy two more.

I would add:

6. Ongoing training to show competency with operation and maintainence of a gun.

Similar to what you have to do with Law and I, medicine.

[Uncle Ted]

I am in favor of:

1. Mandatory Training
2. Mandatory licensing/registration
3. Strict liability to the owner of the firearms for things that are done with that firearm (exception if the firearm is stolen).
4. Reasonable processing fess ($15 is a reasonable fee. $125 is not a reasonable fee - that is a tax.)
5. Restrictions on who can own firearms (very limited in scope - criminals, mentally ill, etc.).

I am not in favor of:

1. Restrictions on the number of firearms.
2. Restrictions on the type of firearms (to a point - the thought of Hallelujah with a .50 cal terrifies me).

I used to be a card-carrying member of the NRA, although I suspect some of the above would have my report card at a C. I currently own at least two firearms (the classification of a third is tricky) with a plan to buy two more.

I agree with you Nikuman except I would add being in favor of:

6. Demonstrating gun safety and proficiency on the range.

7. Registration of fingerprints with both the state and FBI.

Concerning #6, I have seen too many people that are not a criminal or mentally ill that scare the hell out of me to be around with a gun even after they have had some sort of training.

#7, IMO, separates the criminals from the "good guys". All the good guys I know don't have a problem submitting their fingerprints. In fact, as part of the concealed handgun license process in the State of Texas requires this and may be a good model.

When I got my CHL I had to take an eight hour class on gun safety and gun laws, demonstrate safety and proficiency on the range, submit fingerprints to both the FBI and state law enforcement, and pass a written exam. Other states are much different. For example, I have heard that is very hard to get a CHL in California even though they allow about anyone to open carry. In Arizona, from what I understand, you don't need a license to carry concealed a gun which is damm scary IMHO. (The real reason I don't care to visit AZ). In Utah the CHL process is something like a four hour class and a test. No range test or anything. In fact, there is a guy in my town here in Texas that teaches and administers the Utah CHL certification test. One can get an Utah CHL without being even being in the state which is also good in Texas. From what he told me it is less money and Utah actually licenses more non-utahns for concealed carry. This seems to be a loophole for CHLs.

[Coach McGuirk]

#7, IMO, separates the criminals from the "good guys". All the good guys I know don't have a problem submitting their fingerprints. In fact, as part of the concealed handgun license process in the State of Texas requires this and may be a good model.

Same in Utah, and I have my CWP, so I guess I don't see a problem with this either.

[pellegrino]

Same in Utah, and I have my CWP, so I guess I don't see a problem with this either.

I'm not a fan of fingerprinting, but that stems from my father who has the ability to find a conspiracy in anything. I think whatever regulations they are going to have they need to make them as inexpensive and as fast to process as possible. I'm all for keeping guns out of the wrong hands, but going overboard is a form of discrimination that I can't tolerate.

[Pheidippides]

I agree with you Nikuman except I would add being in favor of:

6. Demonstrating gun safety and proficiency on the range.

7. Registration of fingerprints with both the state and FBI.

Concerning #6, I have seen too many people that are not a criminal or mentally ill that scare the hell out of me to be around with a gun even after they have had some sort of training.

#7, IMO, separates the criminals from the "good guys". All the good guys I know don't have a problem submitting their fingerprints. In fact, as part of the concealed handgun license process in the State of Texas requires this and may be a good model.

When I got my CHL I had to take an eight hour class on gun safety and gun laws, demonstrate safety and proficiency on the range, submit fingerprints to both the FBI and state law enforcement, and pass a written exam. Other states are much different. For example, I have heard that is very hard to get a CHL in California even though they allow about anyone to open carry. In Arizona, from what I understand, you don't need a license to carry concealed a gun which is damm scary IMHO. (The real reason I don't care to visit AZ). In Utah the CHL process is something like a four hour class and a test. No range test or anything. In fact, there is a guy in my town here in Texas that teaches and administers the Utah CHL certification test. One can get an Utah CHL without being even being in the state which is also good in Texas. From what he told me it is less money and Utah actually licenses more non-utahns for concealed carry. This seems to be a loophole for CHLs.

Yes, I agree - I wanted to imply #6 in my #1 (mandatory training) but that's not quite the same thing as actually being able to hit what you are shooting at. That is one thing I don't like about the Utah CHL (if true). I would argue that the requirement needs to be for more than just CHL, though - I would have it be for all handguns. Like a driving test for cars - you have a proficiency license, and you can buy a gun. Otherwise, no dice. I'm ignoring the availability of illegal guns here for a moment, which is a separate issue.

As I've said before, I've been involved in gun accidents, and the only reason nobody was hurt was because we had proper training and we used it. Accidental gun deaths are a needless thing.

[Coach McGuirk]

Yes, I agree - I wanted to imply #6 in my #1 (mandatory training) but that's not quite the same thing as actually being able to hit what you are shooting at. That is one thing I don't like about the Utah CHL (if true). I would argue that the requirement needs to be for more than just CHL, though - I would have it be for all handguns. Like a driving test for cars - you have a proficiency license, and you can buy a gun. Otherwise, no dice. I'm ignoring the availability of illegal guns here for a moment, which is a separate issue.

As I've said before, I've been involved in gun accidents, and the only reason nobody was hurt was because we had proper training and we used it. Accidental gun deaths are a needless thing.

The CWP Requirements for Utah are as follows,

What Will it Cost to Apply?
A non-refundable fee of $65.25 must be included with your application. This fee consists of $35.00 for application and permit processing and $30.25 charged by the F.B.I. to process your fingerprint cards. Please make checks and money orders payable to the "Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification".
Who is Eligible?
*Minimum requirements for application for a concealed firearms permit in Utah are:

•Applicant must be at least 21 years of age •Proof of good character...whereas the applicant;

°has not been convicted of a felony;
°has not been convicted of any crime of violence;
°has not been convicted of any offense involving the use of alcohol;
°has not been convicted of any offenses involving the unlawful use of narcotics or other controlled substances;
°has not been convicted of any offenses involving moral turpitude;
°has not been convicted of any offense involving domestic violence;
°has not been adjudicated by a court of a state or of the United States as mentally incompetent, unless the adjudication has been withdrawn or reversed

*A criminal background check is conducted for all applicants
What Must Accompany the Application?
1. A Photocopy of your Driver License 2.
Photograph. One recent color photograph of passport quality. *Photos may be taken at BCI.
3.
Fingerprint Card. One fingerprint card. Must be filled out completely. Writing and prints must be legible. Fingerprint should be taken by a trained fingerprint technician. Fingerprint cards that are not legible will be returned to the applicant and will cause a delay in processing the application.



*Fingerprint services are available from BCI or may be offered through your local law enforcement agency. There are private businesses that also offer this service. Check in your local phone directory. Photos and fingerprints may be obtained at BCI (3888 W 5400 S, Taylorsville, UT. The cost is $13.00 for 1 photo and $13.00 for up to 3 fingerprint cards.
4.
Weapon Familiarity Certification. Applicants must complete a firearms familiarity course certified by BCI. The course must be completed before you apply for a permit. Please have your instructor complete the certification information on the application. View a list of certified instructors. Gunthorp Instructor F.Gardner Behrends is Utah Instructor # I 101157

The Weapons Familiarity Cert is a very basic 4 hour class on firearm safety. There is a no range test, and quite frankly, when I was in the class I thought to myself that half the people should not qualify because they really had no idea how a firearm operated, and some of the answers given in the class were downright scary.
Range time should be required if you are going to carry in public. .

As far as reciprocity, Utah has one of the most recognized CWP's there is. If You are a Utah resident with a CWP, you can carry,



If you are an non-resident with a UT CWP, you can carry,

[Uncle Ted]

Yes, I agree - I wanted to imply #6 in my #1 (mandatory training) but that's not quite the same thing as actually being able to hit what you are shooting at. That is one thing I don't like about the Utah CHL (if true). I would argue that the requirement needs to be for more than just CHL, though - I would have it be for all handguns. Like a driving test for cars - you have a proficiency license, and you can buy a gun. Otherwise, no dice. I'm ignoring the availability of illegal guns here for a moment, which is a separate issue.

As I've said before, I've been involved in gun accidents, and the only reason nobody was hurt was because we had proper training and we used it. Accidental gun deaths are a needless thing.

FYI, more information about how easy it is to get an Utah CHL:

Since the permits are relatively easy to obtain and renew, some refer to a Utah firearm permit as "the most prized gun permit in the country." At least 21-years-old, applicants must pass a background check, pay a $65.25 application and processing fee, and complete a weapons familiarity certification class--not necessarily taught in the state of Utah. Once granted, the concealed-carry permit is good for five years and only costs $10 to renew.

Peter Hamm, spokesperson for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, doesn't approve. "I think it's absolutely shameful and ludicrously irresponsible to say that anybody anywhere who wants one of our concealed-carry permits, and thus will be able to carry legally in dozens of states, can just log on to our Web site and pay 60 bucks and that's all she wrote," Hamm said, according to the New York Times.

[...]

In 2004, the Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification received about 8,000 applications for gun permits. In 2009, that number jumped significantly with 73,925 applications being submitted. Almost 60 percent of those came from nonresidents.

Also, here is a list of out-of-state instructors for an Utah weapons familiarity certification class: http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/doc...tstate_081.pdf

As you can see there are plenty. Texas really should consider dropping its reciprocity agreement with Utah until their requirements are inline with its own, IMO. I wouldn't mind too much getting an Utah CHL in addition to my Texas one since Utah's is cheap and easy. I agree that something like the Texas CHL course should be required to own a gun. Personally I learned a lot about Texas gun laws that I didn't know taking the course (in addition to the gun safety, of course).

[BigFatMeanie]

Utah is now considering joining Alaska and (by the end of this month) Arizona in allowing concealed carry without requiring a permit.

[LA Ute]

Utah is now considering joining Alaska and (by the end of this month) Arizona in allowing concealed carry without requiring a permit.

At this point I start to wonder if Utah legislators are trying to make good public policy in this area or are just trying to make a statement. (Note: I am a supporter of gun rights.)

[beelzebabette]

At this point I start to wonder if Utah legislators are trying to make good public policy in this area or are just trying to make a statement. (Note: I am a supporter of gun rights.)

Thanks to the Utah political structure (caucus, campaign finance laws & disclosure), Utah legislators have little incentive to do anything but cave to lobbyists, IMO.

[venkman]

Utah is now considering joining Alaska and (by the end of this month) Arizona in allowing concealed carry without requiring a permit.

Vermont has been that way for years.

[wuapinmon]

And criminals will always be able to get Oxycontin without going through the proper legal channels, but that's not a reason to stop regulating the distribution of it. You do what you can.

Yes, it is.