Closing Gitmo

[TripletDaddy]

Ok. You win the ethical argument about protecting prisoners from other violent prisoners by pointing out that sharks are just as likely to eat sex dolls and ham hocks as they are to eat a motionless bacon-smeared person in a shark pool. A little circuitous, but whatever it takes to rationalize permitting prison rape as de facto punishment, right?

If, by "permitting prison rape," you mean don't treat these terrorists any differently than we already treat our thousands of incarcerated individuals, then, yes, I guess I would agree with you.

[RobinFinderson]

If, by "permitting prison rape," you mean don't treat these terrorists any differently than we already treat our thousands of incarcerated individuals, then, yes, I guess I would agree with you.

It seems like you look at the ethical/moral atrocity of the American penal system and see an opportunity to 'torture' Gitmo detainees without actually torturing them... the equivalent of throwing them into a shark tank covered in pig guts (better?), and claiming no responsibility for the outcome.

I look at the ethical/moral atrocity of the American penal system and see a civil rights problem just as crucial to our country's moral standing as civil rights for women, minorities, and gay people.

[TripletDaddy]

It seems like you look at the ethical/moral atrocity of the American penal system and see an opportunity to 'torture' Gitmo detainees without actually torturing them... the equivalent of throwing them into a shark tank covered in pig guts (better?), and claiming no responsibility for the outcome.

I look at the ethical/moral atrocity of the American penal system and see a civil rights problem just as crucial to our country's moral standing as civil rights for women, minorities, and gay people.

my approach attempts to address a domestic issue: national security.

your approach stands there and pontificates, waxing theoretical and stating the obvious. Gee....prison rape is an atrocity...it is a violation of civil rights. Sheesh....thanks for pointing that one out.

Go ahead and worry about how to make prisons free from rape. Good luck with that. The rest of us will be over here trying to come up with solutions to problems.

[RobinFinderson]

my approach attempts to address a domestic issue: national security.

The veiled threat of rape, assault and murder as a solution to a national security issue? Good one Saddam.

[Colly Wolly]

Why not chop the wang off the guy who did the raping? That seems like justice to me. Doesn't require someone else to rape him for a just punishment.

[Jeff Lebowski]

my approach attempts to address a domestic issue: national security.

your approach stands there and pontificates, waxing theoretical and stating the obvious. Gee....prison rape is an atrocity...it is a violation of civil rights. Sheesh....thanks for pointing that one out.

Go ahead and worry about how to make prisons free from rape. Good luck with that. The rest of us will be over here trying to come up with solutions to problems.

We all love you, DDD, but this not one your finer moments. "National security" is not some handy little trump card we can trot out when we need to cover our asses.

[il Padrino Ute]

We all love you, DDD, but this not one your finer moments. "National security" is not some handy little trump card we can trot out when we need to cover our asses.

Like going after terrorists camps who claimed responsibility for the bombings of embassies in Kenya and Tanzania during a scandal invlving the POTUS and an intern? (Just a joke)

[TripletDaddy]

We all love you, DDD, but this not one your finer moments. "National security" is not some handy little trump card we can trot out when we need to cover our asses.

I am advocating putting these prisoners into general population with other prisoners.

You seem to be advocating special treatment for suspected terrorists.

[RockyBalboa]

I know I'm a cold heartless bastard, but as far as I'm concerned...anything bad that happens to murderous gutless sycophants isn't enough.

Do I feel bad if murderers get tortured to give up useful information that will help save lives?

Nope.

Call me what you will.

[wuapinmon]

I know I'm a cold heartless bastard, but as far as I'm concerned...anything bad that happens to murderous gutless sycophants isn't enough.

Do I feel bad if murderers get tortured to give up useful information that will help save lives?

Nope.

Call me what you will.

Un-American
Eighth Amendment:

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

We don't throw it out when times get tough....even martial law is a law. I invite you to read Franz Fanon's the Wretched of the Earth to see what the effect of torturing is on the torturers. For example, one French Algerian police officer can't understand why he hates his wife and beats his children when he has a "good job" torturing separatists all day.

[Indy Coug]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/23/wo...ef=todayspaper

[RobinFinderson]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/23/wo...ef=todayspaper

And that is evidence of what? When you detain people who are suspected of doing terrible things, you still need to collect evidence against them and make a case. If anything, this demonstrates that Gitmo is an abject failure. We need a system that collects our enemies, collects legal evidence against them, and ultimately convicts them in a legitimate court of law. That is the American way.

[Jeff Lebowski]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/23/wo...ef=todayspaper

I saw a news report the other day saying that US officials claim that about 10% of former Gitmo detainees "return to terrorism". Analysis of these cases indicates that if you rule out the ones that simply seem to be making public anti-US statements, the real number is closer to 1-2%.

[Uncle Ted]

Who needs Gitmo when Obama has Navy warships... I'm guessing it makes water boarding a lot easier:

Did Obama swap 'black' detention sites for ships?

EILEEN SULLIVAN
Associated Press


WASHINGTON (AP) - Instead of sending suspected terrorists to Guantanamo Bay or secret CIA "black" sites for interrogation, the Obama administration is questioning terrorists for as long as it takes aboard U.S. naval vessels.


And it's doing it in a way that preserves the government's ability to ultimately prosecute the suspects in civilian courts.


That's the pattern emerging with the recent capture of Abu Anas al-Libi, one of the FBI's most wanted terrorists, long-sought for his alleged role in the 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Africa. He was captured in a raid Saturday and is being held aboard the USS San Antonio, an amphibious warship mainly used to transport troops.


Questioning suspected terrorists aboard U.S. warships in international waters is President Barack Obama's answer to the Bush administration detention policies that candidate Obama promised to end. The strategy also makes good on Obama's pledge to prosecute terrorists in U.S. civilian courts, which many Republicans have argued against. But it also raises questions about using "law of war" powers to circumvent the safeguards of the U.S. criminal justice system.


By holding people in secret prisons, known as black sites, the CIA was able to question them over long periods, using the harshest interrogation tactics, without giving them access to lawyers. Obama came to office without a ready replacement for those secret prisons. The concern was that if a terrorist was sent directly to court, the government might never know what intelligence he had. With the black sites closed and Obama refusing to send more people to the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, it wasn't obvious where the U.S. would hold people for interrogation.


And that's where the warships came in.

[...]

http://www.wtop.com/289/3474789/Did-...ites-for-ships

Still no hope, but at least there's microscopic change.