Closing Gitmo

[Jeff Lebowski]

From cnn.com:

Rep. Bill Young, R-Florida, said he has "quite a bit of anxiety" about the possibility of transferring detainees to U.S. facilities.


"Number one, they're dangerous," Young said. "Secondly, once they become present in the United States, what is their legal status? What is their constitutional status? I worry about that, because I don't want them to have the same constitutional rights that you and I have. They're our enemy."

Here is a question that I have: If they truly are terrorists and we have documentation for their crimes, why such fear to give them some due process? Isn't terrorism illegal in the US, even for people with full legal rights?

Aren't we trying to bring democracy and the rule of law to Iraq and Afganistan?

Assuming that the crimes were committed in Iraq and Afganistan, why not return them to those countries and let their new democratic governments deal with them?

[SoCalCoug]

What scares me is all the machinations that have been designed to avoid giving due process to these people.

I firmly disagree with the camp that says non-US citizens are not entitled to due process.

I also dislike the blatant attempt at an end-around the provisions of the Geneva Convention.

I think it all comes down to where you stand on the security vs. freedom spectrum. Bush was way over toward the security end, at the expense of freedom.

[TripletDaddy]

I think that a big deterrant to terrorism would be to throw these people into general population at a federal prison. Make it known that they are terror suspects and then release them to the hounds.

Keep them alive so they don't get martyred, but they will likely get brutalized and humiliated beyond belief.

I think this would freak out aspiring bombers. They crave glory through death, not incarceration.

[myboynoah]

Here is a question that I have: If they truly are terrorists and we have documentation for their crimes, why such fear to give them some due process? Isn't terrorism illegal in the US, even for people with full legal rights?

Aren't we trying to bring democracy and the rule of law to Iraq and Afganistan?

Assuming that the crimes were committed in Iraq and Afganistan, why not return them to those countries and let their new democratic governments deal with them?

The intersection between intelligence gathering and criminal investigation, probably in most cases, does not lead to effective criminal prosecution. We know they are bad guys, but do we have enough evidence to convict them in a court of law? That said, there was an established process for military tribunals to resolve as many as possible. Obama's actions put a stop to that process and will probably cause everyone to start over.

I suspect in many cases we have tried to offshore the detention/resolution of these cases. The previous adminstration has already cleared out close to 500 of the cases already. I suspect the remaining 250 are the most difficult/hard core.

[RobinFinderson]

I think that a big deterrant to terrorism would be to throw these people into general population at a federal prison. Make it known that they are terror suspects and then release them to the hounds.

Keep them alive so they don't get martyred, but they will likely get brutalized and humiliated beyond belief.

I think this would freak out aspiring bombers. They crave glory through death, not incarceration.

I sometimes think this is our strategy with all prisoners in the US prison system. Our federal penitentiaries are horrible places where people learn to become monsters, if they weren't monsters already when they went in. A society can be judged by how it treats its weakest members. Look at our prisons and what happens inside them.

[Jeff Lebowski]

The intersection between intelligence gathering and criminal investigation, probably in most cases, does not lead to effective criminal prosecution. We know they are bad guys, but do we have enough evidence to convict them in a court of law? That said, there was an established process for military tribunals to resolve as many as possible. Obama's actions put a stop to that process and will probably cause everyone to start over.

I suspect in many cases we have tried to offshore the detention/resolution of these cases. The previous adminstration has already cleared out close to 500 of the cases already. I suspect the remaining 250 are the most difficult/hard core.

Most difficult in what way?

[Solon]

Most difficult in what way?

Worst offenders, like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, al-Nashiri, or Abu Zubaydah.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Worst offenders, like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, al-Nashiri, or Abu Zubaydah.

But if they are the worst offenders, wouldn't that mean that they would be easiest to prosecute (either in the US or back in the home country)?

[Solon]

I sometimes think this is our strategy with all prisoners in the US prison system. Our federal penitentiaries are horrible places where people learn to become monsters, if they weren't monsters already when they went in. A society can be judged by how it treats its weakest members. Look at our prisons and what happens inside them.

Imprisoning the body can be just as violent as torturing it, or so I thought as I read Foucault's Discipline and Punish.

[Solon]

But if they are the worst offenders, wouldn't that mean that they would be easiest to prosecute (either in the US or back in the home country)?

That's what I thought too. Maybe waterboard-extracted confessions don't hold up in court.

I think that's why KSM is being tried in military tribunals: the rules of evidence are different. (I could be wrong, though).

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

How are they going to be transported to the US? I hope it is on an old air plane like Con Air, and the terrorists overtake the guards but there is one terrorist that isn't really into terror he just got caught up in the moment and ends up being a hero.

[myboynoah]

Most difficult in what way?

I mean most difficult to place with another country. If the home country doesn't want them, what do we do?

[myboynoah]

That's what I thought too. Maybe waterboard-extracted confessions don't hold up in court.

Bingo. Or information gathered by other methods or via intelligence gathering we don't want to expose. "Torture" has become such a political lightening rod that it would be raised in any U.S. court proceding to try to disqualify evidence. This is a path fraught with risks.

[wuapinmon]

I think that a big deterrant to terrorism would be to throw these people into general population at a federal prison. Make it known that they are terror suspects and then release them to the hounds.

Keep them alive so they don't get martyred, but they will likely get brutalized and humiliated beyond belief.

I think this would freak out aspiring bombers. They crave glory through death, not incarceration.

For years now I've been among the people who made jokes about criminals getting "what they deserved in prison," making clear inference that they would receive unwanted sexual advances by fellow inmates. I used to sing along to Sublime's song "Date Rape," and think it was funny that the date rapist had this happen to him:

One night in jail it was getting late/he was buttraped by a large inmate/and he screamed/but the guards paid no attention to his cries/

and

The moral of this date rape story/it does not pay to be drunk horny/but that's the way/it had to be/they locked him up and threw away the key/but I can't take pity on men of his kind/even though he now takes it in the behind.

I can't believe I ever thought that was just or funny. Anal rape is rape. Prison is punishment enough; how can we call ourselves a just and justice loving people if we think rape is funny or deserved, no matter how awful the crime? Shame on me.

What the hell was I thinking?

[woot]

I sometimes think this is our strategy with all prisoners in the US prison system. Our federal penitentiaries are horrible places where people learn to become monsters, if they weren't monsters already when they went in. A society can be judged by how it treats its weakest members. Look at our prisons and what happens inside them.

I agree with this and it needs to be said more often. Rape isn't funny whether it happens to criminals or not.