Let's talk about AZ Senate Bill 1070...

[RobinFinderson]

There is irony on all sides of the immigration debate, i.e. Cesar Chaves would have supported this law.

You don't know that (and you don't know how to spell Chavez).

[Guest]

You don't know that (and you don't know how to spell Chavez).

Why do you think he wouldn't?

Edit: You must know (being a Californian and all) about him using the UFW to work side by side with the la migra on the border, ratting out undocumented workers, and using labor pressure to penalize business who hired undocumented workers, right?

[wuapinmon]

How horrible!

[Uncle Ted]

The economic impact is the undersold side of this thing. Arizona's economy for the last few decades has been based on in migration and construction. So now you have an overbuilt state that has just essentially told immigrants "if you come here you will be subject to police stops to ask for your papers". This will drive legal immigrants away from Arizona and worsen their economy and stretch out any housing recovery.

Yes, indeed... How Much Will Arizona's Immigration Bill (SB1070) Cost?

More broadly, Gov. Brewer should keep in mind that, if significant numbers of immigrants and Latinos are actually persuaded to leave the state because of this new law, they will take their tax dollars, businesses, and purchasing power with them. The University of Arizona's Udall Center for Studies in Public Policy estimates that the total economic output attributable to Arizona's immigrant workers was $44 billion in 2004, which sustained roughly 400,000 full-time jobs. Furthermore, over 35,000 businesses in Arizona are Latino-owned and had sales and receipts of $4.3 billion and employed 39,363 people in 2002, the last year for which data is available. The Perryman Group estimates that if all unauthorized immigrants were removed from Arizona, the state would lose $26.4 billion in economic activity, $11.7 billion in gross state product, and approximately 140,324 jobs, even accounting for adequate market adjustment time. Putting economic contributions of this magnitude at risk during a time of recession would not serve Arizona well.

[RobinFinderson]

Why do you think he wouldn't?

Edit: You must know (being a Californian and all) about him using the UFW to work side by side with the la migra on the border, ratting out undocumented workers, and using labor pressure to penalize business who hired undocumented workers, right?

I am aware that Chavez supported the prevention of undocumented workers, (because they drive down wages for documented workers), but it is a huge leap to assume that Chavez would support police being able to approach brown people and demand to see proof of citizenship. Just because Chavez supported documented workers and wanted to prevent undocumented workers from entering the country doesn't mean he would support terrible laws that might do that. This is a huge breach of civil liberty.

[wuapinmon]

Robin,

Let's go play MW2. I need to kill some people right now.

[RobinFinderson]

Robin,

Let's go play MW2. I need to kill some people right now.

SkinnyTough has the controller right now. Go gun with him. He love running with you guys.

[Guest]

I am aware that Chavez supported the prevention of undocumented workers, (because they drive down wages for documented workers), but it is a huge leap to assume that Chavez would support police being able to approach brown people and demand to see proof of citizenship. Just because Chavez supported documented workers and wanted to prevent undocumented workers from entering the country doesn't mean he would support terrible laws that might do that. This is a huge breach of civil liberty.

To be clear, he didn't just support it philosophically, for the reason you state. He supported it with armed men, open collaboration with the INS, labor muscle, marches and his political savvy.

[Guest]

To be clear, he didn't just support it philosophically, for the reason you state. He supported it with armed men, open collaboration with the INS, labor muscle, marches and his political savvy.

I should also say, I'm not some big immigration enforcement supporter. I'm not. I'm only trying to point out one of the many ironies surrounding the issue.

[RobinFinderson]

To be clear, he didn't just support it philosophically, for the reason you state. He supported it with armed men, open collaboration with the INS, labor muscle, marches and his political savvy.

I think you are extrapolating too much from Chavez's support to control the immigration of undocumented workers. More than Chavez opposed undocumented workers driving down wages, he supported the rights of documented workers. The problem with the AZ law is that it gives the right to police to harass documented workers without probably cause. I guess we are both entitled to our opinions, but I just have a hard time thinking that Chavez would support this infringement on civil liberties. When you see someone running through a remote part of the desert, you have probable cause. When you see a Mexican looking person driving home from a long day of work in the fields, you don't have probably cause (except in AZ).

[byu71]

Good for Arizona. Maybe what they have done will stir things up enough that the Federal Gov't (congress and the President) will seriously address the issue. The status quo just isn't cutting it.

Net, net are undocumenteds good for the country or bad for the country. I sure would like to hear a good honest debate with facts,

[Guest]

I think you are extrapolating too much from Chavez's support to control the immigration of undocumented workers. More than Chavez opposed undocumented workers driving down wages, he supported the rights of documented workers. The problem with the AZ law is that it gives the right to police to harass documented workers without probably cause. I guess we are both entitled to our opinions, but I just have a hard time thinking that Chavez would support this infringement on civil liberties. When you see someone running through a remote part of the desert, you have probable cause. When you see a Mexican looking person driving home from a long day of work in the fields, you don't have probably cause (except in AZ).

Take a look at the bill when you have time. There is more to it than the summaries on HuffPo. Half of it deals with enforcement against employers, contractors, subcontractors who knowing hire undocumented labor. There are also provisions against those who transport, harbor and traffic in undocumented persons. This is exactly what Chavez would support, as we've both agreed.

Some of the bill is over the top (like provisions against hiring someone from your car, ala a Home Depot drive by) but in the end, if it forces real conversation, debate and reform, it's probably a good catalyst. Why not let states who are impacted the most put the first stake in the ground?


http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

[wuapinmon]

Take a look at the bill when you have time. There is more to it than the summaries on HuffPo. Half of it deals with enforcement against employers, contractors, subcontractors who knowing hire undocumented labor. There are also provisions against those who transport, harbor and traffic in undocumented persons. This is exactly what Chavez would support, as we've both agreed.

Some of the bill is over the top (like provisions against hiring someone from your car, ala a Home Depot drive by) but in the end, if it forces real conversation, debate and reform, it's probably a good catalyst. Why not let states who are impacted the most put the first stake in the ground?


http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

The whole idea of resistance to the foreign Other is never going to work. A simpler, more productive, and beneficial-to-all solution would be to embrace the people living there, tax them, and allow them to contribute to society. Give them Arizona resident alien cards, and if the Feds want their laws enforced, make them do it... not Arizona.

No matter, this will be short-lived. The Anglo-Saxon folks are breeding themselves out of existence in those lands anyway. Won't be long now...this is the first of many struggling-to-survive gasps de un pueblo in decline.

[Uncle Ted]

[Hallelujah]

I should also say, I'm not some big immigration enforcement supporter. I'm not. I'm only trying to point out one of the many ironies surrounding the issue.

I AM a huge illegal immigration enforcement supporter. I can't believe you are fine with illegal immigration.