Yahoo is reporting that Al Qaeda tried to blow up a US plane today...

[DU Ute]

It IS his name, is it not? The name he's gone by his entire life?

Yeah, I'm sure you refer to Pres. Monson as "Tommy"

[statman]

Yeah, I'm sure you refer to Pres. Monson as "Tommy"

I respect both President Monson and his office...

[DU Ute]

I respect both President Monson and his office...

So why don't you just say you don't respect Pres. Obama instead of coming up with some lame excuse for calling him Barry?

[UtahDan]

I thought some of you might find it interesting that I spent some time recently with someone recently who is currently stationed in Iraq. Non military, but government employed and security related. Can't really say more because I don't want to even remotely identify him.

Anyway, I have always known him to be a pretty right wing guy, supportive of Bush, supportive of the war. He says at this point we are wasting our money and lives. We are not truly making any headway and the government we have put in place cannot survive more than 18 months after we leave. He doesn't think that a civil war will happen right away, but the consensus seems to be the the Shias and Sunnis will have their blood letting not too long after we are gone. The problem, according to him, is that the Shias and Sunnis will never cooperate with each other and that this is a 1000 year old problem that will not be solved in 10 years or 100 years.

One funny thing is that I asked him if there was any local food that was any good. That drew a pretty good laugh. I pretty quickly realized that in Iraq you don't go try the local cuisine. You don't go anywhere as an American outside of a convoy or a hardened local with high walls if you value your life.

I am not cynical and I do think we had good intentions going. I think the cost benefit has changed, however. You can't just drape these things in a flag any longer and pretend that it is somehow noble to persevere. You gotta know when to hold em, know when to fold em. It is time to fold em. That will not be without cost either.

[Surfah]

So why don't you just say you don't respect Pres. Obama instead of coming up with some lame excuse for calling him Barry?

Is it that big of a deal? People get up in arms over this all the time. I can understand people who bring up Hussein all the time in his name being a bit over the top. But calling him Barry is pretty innocuous to me. Our last president was called W if not worse.

[SeattleUte]

I suspect you and Obama are not fully in agreement, as I doubt very much he now believes that going into Iraq was a wonderful idea after all. Rather, he came to realize that we created a situation so volatile that our immediate withdrawal would make a bad situation even worse. In other words, while the highlighted statement may be accurate, it doesn't follow that either (a) going into Iraq was in our national interest, or (b) staying in Iraq forever will be. We're keeping our fingers in the dike in the hope an internal patch will come along.

Well said. BTW, I agree with "Barry" that we should stay there longer than the rigid timetable he set during his campaign. Let the record reflect that this was one of my primary concerns with him. Again, this does not mean we should have gone there in the first place. On the contrary, our inability to extricate ourselves absent without briinging about a holocaust is the overriding reason we shouldn't have gone there in the first place.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

The problem, according to him, is that the Shias and Sunnis will never cooperate with each other and that this is a 1000 year old problem that will not be solved in 10 years or 100 years.

This is something I have thought about a lot, and proves that when we got into this war we were the stereo typical "ignorant American". We can solve this crap, it just takes some good ole' American know how!

[UtahDan]

This is something I have thought about a lot, and proves that when we got into this war we were the stereo typical "ignorant American". We can solve this crap, it just takes some good ole' American know how!

I think that one of the things it proves is that democracy works better the more homogeneous the people are. I'm not sure what ever solves the Shia Sunni conflict, unless it is one wiping the other out or them having separate countries.

Always thought separate countries was a good solution, but the problem there is that geographically speaking the oil would have to be in one country or the other. No one is volunteering to give that up.

I have really circled back again to the idea that many of these problems simply have to be resolved through war. That may seem brutal, but I'm not sure it actually costs more lives in the long run as opposed to a slow ongoing blood letting.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by UtahDan
The problem, according to him, is that the Shias and Sunnis will never cooperate with each other and that this is a 1000 year old problem that will not be solved in 10 years or 100 years.

I remember my dad saying the exact same thing about Vietnam when I was a kid.

[UtahDan]

I remember my dad saying the exact same thing about Vietnam when I was a kid.

There are no muslims in Vietnam.

[SeattleUte]

There are no muslims in Vietnam.

THere are Muslims everywhere.

But of course he was talking about different factions than Muslim. It's still all fascism.

[LA Ute]

I supported the invasion of Iraq because, like the vast majority of people playing close attention, I bought the WMD claims of our (now deservedly much-discredited) intelligence community. I wish we had not gone in, but we did, in good faith I believe. We'd be better off, IMO, if we hadn't.

Nevertheless, I still wear a silicon wristlet that says "For Those Who Serve," and I expect to wear it until either it falls off or every combat soldier in Iraq and Afghanistan comes home. I think it will fall off first.

I do wish Pres. Obama would really treat this situation like a war. His reference to the Christmas day crotch bomber and Al Quaeda as "violent extremists" is discouraging. I am one of those who think words matter.

[UtahDan]

THere are Muslims everywhere.

But of course he was talking about different factions than Muslim. It's still all fascism.

I agree respecting Vietnam, but I'm not sure I follow you on the Shia/Sunni issue. Who are/are not the fascists there?

[SeattleUte]

I agree respecting Vietnam, but I'm not sure I follow you on the Shia/Sunni issue. Who are/are not the fascists there?

I think radical Islam--I'll go further and say that much of politicized Islam in the Middle East--is fascism pure and simple. This isn't my own original idea. Fascism is state, authoritarian religion pure and simple; it has rejected traditional religion only as being incompatible competitors it would supplant. Of course, religious pluralism is incompatible with fascism. But fascism has always been adapted from traditional religion. There is always a strong element of founding myth. Fascism is always steeped in mythology and ideology of ancient antecedents and cultural and/or racial superiority and intolerance for competing ideologies. A hallmark of fascism is its loathing of free market societies that beget racial and ideological plurality, even harmony, become driven by pursuit of money, which is quite indifferent to races and creeds.

These people are killing one another just as fascists have in the past. We are simply dealing with another outbreak of facsism just as we did in the mid-twentieth century.

That being said, statman is probably the person here I could use a Nazi analogy on and come closest to being accurate.

[UtahDan]

I think radical Islam--I'll go further and say that much of politicized Islam in the Middle East--is fascism pure and simple. This isn't my own original idea. Fascism is state, authoritarian religion pure and simple; it has rejected traditional religion only as being incompatible competitors it would supplant. Of course, religious pluralism is incompatible with fascism. But fascism has always been adapted from traditional religion. There is always a strong element of founding myth. Fascism is always steeped in mythology and ideology of ancient antecedents and cultural and/or racial superiority and intolerance for competing ideologies. A hallmark of fascism is its loathing of free market societies that beget racial and ideological plurality, even harmony, become driven by pursuit of money, which is quite indifferent to races and creeds.

These people are killing one another just as fascists have in the past. We are simply dealing with another outbreak of facsism just as we did in the mid-twentieth century.

That being said, statman is probably the person here I could use a Nazi analogy on and come closest to being accurate.

I think I see what you are trying to say. In both cases fascists wanting to have at each other. This goes back to the old idea that democracies don't go to war with each other and therefore it is a good idea to try to export democracy. I agree with the first part of that, but as we are finding out yet again, Germany and Japan were the exceptions.

Not every soul yearns for democracy. Every educated soul who is not a religious zealot yearns for democracy.