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  • Legalizing Drugs (Cocaine, Marijuana, etc)

    I read an interesting post in the Wall Street Journal about Legalization of Drugs. See article at bottom.

    I'm finding my knowledge about this subject lacking enough that I can't really come to grips with it. I have my prejudices and I suspect that they are highly related to my religion. However, I don't want needless prejudices in my life. I'm not in a mood to just take a high-church leaders word for it. I'm also not willing to just take someone elses opinion for it....or the media. I can see points on both sides of this debate worth considering. Also looking at countries (country) that has legalized drugs (to an extent), I'm wondering about the soundness of our drug policies. So these are my questions:

    1) Have our drug policies failed? Both monetarily, legally and morally?

    2) What makes certain drugs so much more inherently dangerous or morally unacceptable than alcohol (marijuana for instance)?

    3) If legalization makes sense, what drugs should be legalized?

    4) What do we guess the outcome would be of legalization?

    5) Would legalization end the horribleness of the drug trade (Juarez Women)?

    Maybe I haven't even thought of the most pertinent questions to ask. Are there any that I haven't asked that should be asked?

    Sorry about posting the article here. I don't know how to put a URL in for the Wall Street Journal without a subsciption.


    Let's End Drug Prohibition
    Most Americans agreed that alcohol suppression was worse than alcohol consumption.Article

    By ETHAN A. NADELMANN

    Today is the 75th anniversary of that blessed day in 1933 when Utah became the 36th and deciding state to ratify the 21st amendment, thereby repealing the 18th amendment. This ended the nation's disastrous experiment with alcohol prohibition.

    Celebrating the end of alcohol prohibition, Dec. 5, 1933.
    It's already shaping up as a day of celebration, with parties planned, bars prepping for recession-defying rounds of drinks, and newspapers set to publish cocktail recipes concocted especially for the day.

    But let's hope it also serves as a day of reflection. We should consider why our forebears rejoiced at the relegalization of a powerful drug long associated with bountiful pleasure and pain, and consider too the lessons for our time.

    The Americans who voted in 1933 to repeal prohibition differed greatly in their reasons for overturning the system. But almost all agreed that the evils of failed suppression far outweighed the evils of alcohol consumption.

    The change from just 15 years earlier, when most Americans saw alcohol as the root of the problem and voted to ban it, was dramatic. Prohibition's failure to create an Alcohol Free Society sank in quickly. Booze flowed as readily as before, but now it was illicit, filling criminal coffers at taxpayer expense.

    Some opponents of prohibition pointed to Al Capone and increasing crime, violence and corruption. Others were troubled by the labeling of tens of millions of Americans as criminals, overflowing prisons, and the consequent broadening of disrespect for the law. Americans were disquieted by dangerous expansions of federal police powers, encroachments on individual liberties, increasing government expenditure devoted to enforcing the prohibition laws, and the billions in forgone tax revenues. And still others were disturbed by the specter of so many citizens blinded, paralyzed and killed by poisonous moonshine and industrial alcohol.

    Supporters of prohibition blamed the consumers, and some went so far as to argue that those who violated the laws deserved whatever ills befell them. But by 1933, most Americans blamed prohibition itself.

    When repeal came, it was not just with the support of those with a taste for alcohol, but also those who disliked and even hated it but could no longer ignore the dreadful consequences of a failed prohibition. They saw what most Americans still fail to see today: That a failed drug prohibition can cause greater harm than the drug it was intended to banish.

    Consider the consequences of drug prohibition today: 500,000 people incarcerated in U.S. prisons and jails for nonviolent drug-law violations; 1.8 million drug arrests last year; tens of billions of taxpayer dollars expended annually to fund a drug war that 76% of Americans say has failed; millions now marked for life as former drug felons; many thousands dying each year from drug overdoses that have more to do with prohibitionist policies than the drugs themselves, and tens of thousands more needlessly infected with AIDS and Hepatitis C because those same policies undermine and block responsible public-health policies.

    And look abroad. At Afghanistan, where a third or more of the national economy is both beneficiary and victim of the failed global drug prohibition regime. At Mexico, which makes Chicago under Al Capone look like a day in the park. And elsewhere in Latin America, where prohibition-related crime, violence and corruption undermine civil authority and public safety, and mindless drug eradication campaigns wreak environmental havoc.

    All this, and much more, are the consequences not of drugs per se but of prohibitionist policies that have failed for too long and that can never succeed in an open society, given the lessons of history. Perhaps a totalitarian American could do better, but at what cost to our most fundamental values?

    Why did our forebears wise up so quickly while Americans today still struggle with sorting out the consequences of drug misuse from those of drug prohibition?

    It's not because alcohol is any less dangerous than the drugs that are banned today. Marijuana, by comparison, is relatively harmless: little association with violent behavior, no chance of dying from an overdose, and not nearly as dangerous as alcohol if one misuses it or becomes addicted. Most of heroin's dangers are more a consequence of its prohibition than the drug's distinctive properties. That's why 70% of Swiss voters approved a referendum this past weekend endorsing the government's provision of pharmaceutical heroin to addicts who could not quit their addictions by other means. It is also why a growing number of other countries, including Canada, are doing likewise.

    Yes, the speedy drugs -- cocaine, methamphetamine and other illicit stimulants -- present more of a problem. But not to the extent that their prohibition is justifiable while alcohol's is not. The real difference is that alcohol is the devil we know, while these others are the devils we don't. Most Americans in 1933 could recall a time before prohibition, which tempered their fears. But few Americans now can recall the decades when the illicit drugs of today were sold and consumed legally. If they could, a post-prohibition future might prove less alarming.


    there's nothing like a depression, or maybe even a full-blown recession, to make taxpayers question the price of their prejudices. That's what ultimately hastened prohibition's repeal, and it's why we're sure to see a more vigorous debate than ever before about ending marijuana prohibition, rolling back other drug war excesses, and even contemplating far-reaching alternatives to drug prohibition.

    Perhaps the greatest reassurance for those who quake at the prospect of repealing contemporary drug prohibitions can be found in the era of prohibition outside of America. Other nations, including Britain, Australia and the Netherlands, were equally concerned with the problems of drink and eager for solutions. However, most opted against prohibition and for strict controls that kept alcohol legal but restricted its availability, taxed it heavily, and otherwise discouraged its use. The results included ample revenues for government coffers, criminals frustrated by the lack of easy profits, and declines in the consumption and misuse of alcohol that compared favorably with trends in the United States.

    Is President-elect Barack Obama going to commemorate Repeal Day today? I'm not holding my breath. Nor do I expect him to do much to reform the nation's drug laws apart from making good on a few of the commitments he made during the campaign: repealing the harshest drug sentences, removing federal bans on funding needle-exchange programs to reduce AIDS, giving medical marijuana a fair chance to prove itself, and supporting treatment alternatives for low-level drug offenders.

    But there's one more thing he can do: Promote vigorous and informed debate in this domain as in all others. The worst prohibition, after all, is a prohibition on thinking.

    Mr. Nadelmann is the executive director of the Drug Policy Alliance.

  • #2
    Aren't there two distinct murder problems in Juarez? The Juarez women refers to a serial killer, or several serial killers who have been killing women in Juarez for years. Right now there are also the killings associated with the drug trade, which are everywhere throughout the border towns of Mexico.

    I think that legalization would end most of the violence associated with the drug trade. It would also decrease the expense of incarcerating non-violent drug offenders. It would probably increase the use and addiction to some drugs, which would require diverting some of the money from incarceration and the international war on drugs to treatment for addiction and abuse. Legalization would also expand human liberty in a real sense, giving people the right to grow and ingest their own medicine.

    So I'm all for legalization. I believe the pros would far outweigh the cons.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by RobinFinderson View Post
      Aren't there two distinct murder problems in Juarez? The Juarez women refers to a serial killer, or several serial killers who have been killing women in Juarez for years. Right now there are also the killings associated with the drug trade, which are everywhere throughout the border towns of Mexico.
      RF, I was a little vague on the Juarez Women. I read 5 articles about it last night and most articles thought it was due to serial killers but one article stood out that indicated that it could very well be Drug Kingpins having sex orgies and abducting these women for their parties.......ugh. Horrible thought.

      Comment


      • #4
        The thing that irks me most about the criminalization of drugs is the hypocrisy of allowing pharmaceutical companies to profit on the endless proliferation of drugs every bit as dangerous as those which are currently being criminalized.

        We are a society addicted to drugs. We love our drugs. Housewives addicted to Soma because they have restless legs. Or Prozac because they want something to take the edge off. If Eli Lilly could find a way to profit from pot and coke, there would be a bong in every household.
        "The mind is not a boomerang. If you throw it too far it will not come back." ~ Tom McGuane

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Non Sequitur View Post
          The thing that irks me most about the criminalization of drugs is the hypocrisy of allowing pharmaceutical companies to profit on the endless proliferation of drugs every bit as dangerous as those which are currently being criminalized.
          Exactly. The drug company lobbies are deeply invested in the war on drugs. The last thing they need is for people to be able to grow their own medicine.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by RobinFinderson View Post
            Right now there are also the killings associated with the drug trade, which are everywhere throughout the border towns of Mexico.
            The number of gangland killings reached 5,376 from the beginning of the year until Dec. 2, a 117 percent increase over the 2,477 killings in the same period in 2007
            It could be even worse next year. Many of the conditions for the current status of the drug trade and illegal immigration in Mexico were set in motion after the oil shocks of the early '80s. With oil down $100 from its high and demand destruction under way, Mexico could be set up for another 'lost decade'.

            http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/09/wo...l?ref=americas

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by RobinFinderson View Post
              Exactly. The drug company lobbies are deeply invested in the war on drugs. The last thing they need is for people to be able to grow their own medicine.
              A person growing their own dank in the attack is vastly different from opening up communities to the consequences of bathtubs of crank. Night and day.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Non Sequitur View Post
                The thing that irks me most about the criminalization of drugs is the hypocrisy of allowing pharmaceutical companies to profit on the endless proliferation of drugs every bit as dangerous as those which are currently being criminalized.

                We are a society addicted to drugs. We love our drugs. Housewives addicted to Soma because they have restless legs. Or Prozac because they want something to take the edge off. If Eli Lilly could find a way to profit from pot and coke, there would be a bong in every household.
                This is a little overly cynical. First of all, no drug company is profiting off of either Prozac or Soma, as both are generic drugs. I agree that antidepressants are overused, but I would hardly call it an addiction, at least by any clinical or useful definition. We have the occasional Soma addict, but these are actually pretty rare and certainly not as devastating as some of the illegal drugs. Narcotics, benzos, and stimulants all are very addicting with devastating consequences--but again, drug company profits have nothing to do with this, as the vast majority of them are generic. Drug companies contribute to problems to be sure, but this ain't one of them.

                And then there's the issue of medical utility. Narcotics, benzos, and stimulants all have medical uses; pot and coke don't. Well, pot does, I guess, but it's already offered in a prescription form, and no one's nearly as excited about taking the pill as smoking their joint.
                At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 8BR View Post
                  A person growing their own dank in the attack is vastly different from opening up communities to the consequences of bathtubs of crank. Night and day.
                  It is hard to know what the real consequences would be. Assuming most homes with yards would have a medicinal plant or two growing in the back yard, perhaps there wouldn't be as much demand for the chemical stuff. People could grow their own marijuana, coke and heroin. Is the high from meth really so great that people would continue to cook it if there were abundant garden-variety drugs available? I don't know.

                  But the real legalization folks (like myself) are more interested in the freedom issue more than the social cost. As a fundamental human right, I think people should be able to grow and ingest the foods and medicines that they want. Maybe that is how to legalize some drugs and not others -- the government could continue to control the sale of certain chemicals and refined pharmaceuticals. This would essentially curb the production of meth. But as a new Constitutional right, people should be able to grow and harvest any kind of plant on their own property. Being able to grow and ingest your own food/medicine, sure sounds like a more basic human right than the right to own an M-16.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                    This is a little overly cynical. First of all, no drug company is profiting off of either Prozac or Soma, as both are generic drugs. I agree that antidepressants are overused, but I would hardly call it an addiction, at least by any clinical or useful definition. We have the occasional Soma addict, but these are actually pretty rare and certainly not as devastating as some of the illegal drugs. Narcotics, benzos, and stimulants all are very addicting with devastating consequences--but again, drug company profits have nothing to do with this, as the vast majority of them are generic. Drug companies contribute to problems to be sure, but this ain't one of them.

                    And then there's the issue of medical utility. Narcotics, benzos, and stimulants all have medical uses; pot and coke don't. Well, pot does, I guess, but it's already offered in a prescription form, and no one's nearly as excited about taking the pill as smoking their joint.
                    Is it your contention that our society is not over medicated?

                    I didn't mean to lay all the hyprocisy at the feet of the pharmaceutical companies. I should have included the medical profession in that hypocrisy. If I want morphine, I'm well within my rights to consume it. Provided, of course, I first pay a doctor to green light it.
                    "The mind is not a boomerang. If you throw it too far it will not come back." ~ Tom McGuane

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I find it a bit hypocritical that we view alcohol as worthy of being legal but other drugs are not. Some explain this as society merely having a longer acceptable history of alcohol usage while hard drug usage has come about in a more modern time. Although opiates have been around for thousands of years also but not in the potency we see today, I believe. I could be wrong.

                      Does anyone in the forum have clinical experience with drugs and alcohol to gives us a glimpes of the difference between the two? I have my opinions but that is not fact.

                      Also, I know there are a lot of strong feelings about drug companies. And they have been demonized from every side. I don't believe that beating on them actually makes sense in this discussion. I know its emotionally fun to kick them around but I wonder if this is really relevant to legalizing illicit drugs. If they really are relevant, I would enjoy seeing some facts.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Non Sequitur View Post
                        Is it your contention that our society is not over medicated?

                        I didn't mean to lay all the hyprocisy at the feet of the pharmaceutical companies. I should have included the medical profession in that hypocrisy. If I want morphine, I'm well within my rights to consume it. Provided, of course, I first pay a doctor to green light it.
                        NS, how does one go about accurately defining overuse (this is an honest question, not beating on you)? There are strong feelings about this issue but how does one go about getting a handle on "too much"?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Non Sequitur View Post
                          Is it your contention that our society is not over medicated?

                          I didn't mean to lay all the hyprocisy at the feet of the pharmaceutical companies. I should have included the medical profession in that hypocrisy. If I want morphine, I'm well within my rights to consume it. Provided, of course, I first pay a doctor to green light it.
                          Yes, I tend to think we're overmedicated. In some cases, that's the fault of the doctor. In many more cases, it's a patient who would much rather take a pill than change his diet, exercise, develop coping mechanisms, etc.

                          I don't even know where you're going with the second paragraph. Trust me--I would absolutely LOVE to get out of the narcotic prescribing business. And I'm not alone. There are plenty of primary physicians who simply tell their patients that they don't "do chronic pain" and they'll need to seek that help somewhere else. In the ER, we have to treat pain, or we get a career-ending EMTALA violation.

                          If you're arguing that people should have the right to consume morphine if they wish, that's hardly the fault of physicians--that's the system we've chosen as a society. (Well, that is, if you ignore the little kickback we get each month from Morphine, Inc based on how much morphine we prescribe.) Get back to the benefits and costs of drug legalization if you want to tackle that debate. It has absolutely nothing to do with conflicts of interest.

                          Where are you getting this stuff? Besides not having any evidence for it, you're not even making sense.
                          At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                          -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DNA View Post
                            I find it a bit hypocritical that we view alcohol as worthy of being legal but other drugs are not. Some explain this as society merely having a longer acceptable history of alcohol usage while hard drug usage has come about in a more modern time. Although opiates have been around for thousands of years also but not in the potency we see today, I believe. I could be wrong.

                            Does anyone in the forum have clinical experience with drugs and alcohol to gives us a glimpes of the difference between the two? I have my opinions but that is not fact.

                            Also, I know there are a lot of strong feelings about drug companies. And they have been demonized from every side. I don't believe that beating on them actually makes sense in this discussion. I know its emotionally fun to kick them around but I wonder if this is really relevant to legalizing illicit drugs. If they really are relevant, I would enjoy seeing some facts.
                            I don't see much of a difference between alcohol and marijuana. There's the argument that marijuana is a gateway drug, and is harmful in that it leads to abuse of other more potent drugs. Additionally, while alcohol has legitimate dietary uses, marijuana is really only used for the effect it induces. Safety-wise and in their costs to society, there's not much of a difference (although in the aggregate, alcohol is obviously much more costly--perhaps an argument against legalization).

                            As far as the relevance of drug companies to this debate--there is none. They obviously don't manufacture the illegal stuff. They don't even manufacture the prescription drugs that people abuse. I'm not a fan of drug companies, but to connect them to this debate is just silly.
                            At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                            -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I wish I could remember where I heard this, and I have no idea if it's remotely true. Someone said that a study was done on the cost of the war on drugs and they figured that the money being spent was sufficient to provide drug rehab treatment to those who wanted help. Anyone heard about this? Is this believable? I don't know enough about this to know....

                              However, given that they can't keep drugs out of prisons, I'm not sure how they can ever hope to get a reasonable handle on drugs outside of prison. Those who want drugs will get them. Those who don't, wont.
                              I intend to live forever.
                              So far, so good.
                              --Steven Wright

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