Marathon Training Thread

[Moliere]

I missed this yesterday. Thanks.
In retrospect, I did what I wanted--had fun training, didn't get hurt, and got an ok time. It's just that I was running really well through training, so I guess I let my expectations get a little out of hand. I'm hoping there's a learning curve to racing marathons and that I can learn how to do it without feeling like complete crap afterwards.

My bro ran Ogden yesterday and he was flying (relatively) until about 20 miles. Then he hit a wall. His half marathon was under 2 hours and he finished about 4:30.

There's probably a learning curve, but those faces that to downhill for so long are probably a bit deceptive, especially when you hit the flat part at the end.

[OhioBlue]

3:37.
I'm a little frustrated....I may just suck at this distance.

Puhleeeaze. I get the disappointment, because you worked hard and expectations got in there. But from an outsider perspective, it sounds like you had a very solid-to-good race and came in WELL under 4 hours. Congrats! Enjoy it a little!

[Dwight Schr-ute]

Great job ER! I'm coming to believe that a huge part of running is the ability to shrug our shoulders and try again. Running a strategically perfect first would seem to be a major accomplishment. I'm pretty sure that if I ever ran a 3:37. I would have walked of the course with the satisfaction that I would never have to run another step for the rest of my life. I knew a couple of people that ran yesterday something like their 16 and 17 marathons. Both finished behind their averages and expectations. Maybe there's something weird about the second part of the course.

[ERCougar]

Thanks, everyone.
I'm not trying to be dickish or falsely humble about all of this--I know my time's decent. It's just that besides my expectations, I was hoping to use this as a sort of trial run for St G, when now, I just have more questions than I started with.
1) More miles? I did a schedule with 3 running days and 2-3 cross training (cycling) days. I stayed completely injury-free (and burnout-free) with this, so I'm a pretty big believer. I'm willing to go to 4 and 1-2 in the winter, but not in the summer because I really like mountain biking and I have too many days where I have to work out in the afternoon, due to work schedules. I'll try that next winter--I did learn that I really love winter running, even if this was a pretty mild winter.
2) Another 20 miler? Maybe a 22 miler? What are everyone's thoughts on that? I had two on the schedule, but ran one in the heat without nearly enough water so didn't really finish. The second one felt good though.
3) Drinking and fueling during the race? I need to pick brains on this one. I've heard a continuum from drink at every station to drink only when you're thirsty. I followed the latter in the last half, but never really got thirsty until the last few miles, when I also felt nauseated and lightheaded, and was nervous that if I drank anything, I'd throw it up. I'm hoping that this was a big issue and that I can fix it next race, but I still don't know how to hydrate well enough without having to pee all the time. What's everyone's take on this?

There are a few things I'd change about my taper and carbo-loading, but I don't think those are big issues. Mainly I'm wondering about those three areas. Any help?

[ERCougar]

Maybe there's something weird about the second part of the course.

This!
I'm curious to hear Eddie's race report on this. I remembering noticing earlier that no one negative splits this race, when the course profile seems to indicate that you lose more elevation in the second half than the first. I'm anxious to see my Garmin data when I can get home and download it. Those last two miles were rough.
I'm kind of relieved, I guess, that experienced marathoners had trouble yesterday, although I can't figure out why. The weather was perfect. What did your friends struggle with?

[Pheidippides]

Thanks, everyone.
I'm not trying to be dickish or falsely humble about all of this--I know my time's decent. It's just that besides my expectations, I was hoping to use this as a sort of trial run for St G, when now, I just have more questions than I started with.
1) More miles? I did a schedule with 3 running days and 2-3 cross training (cycling) days. I stayed completely injury-free (and burnout-free) with this, so I'm a pretty big believer. I'm willing to go to 4 and 1-2 in the winter, but not in the summer because I really like mountain biking and I have too many days where I have to work out in the afternoon, due to work schedules. I'll try that next winter--I did learn that I really love winter running, even if this was a pretty mild winter.
2) Another 20 miler? Maybe a 22 miler? What are everyone's thoughts on that? I had two on the schedule, but ran one in the heat without nearly enough water so didn't really finish. The second one felt good though.
3) Drinking and fueling during the race? I need to pick brains on this one. I've heard a continuum from drink at every station to drink only when you're thirsty. I followed the latter in the last half, but never really got thirsty until the last few miles, when I also felt nauseated and lightheaded, and was nervous that if I drank anything, I'd throw it up. I'm hoping that this was a big issue and that I can fix it next race, but I still don't know how to hydrate well enough without having to pee all the time. What's everyone's take on this?

There are a few things I'd change about my taper and carbo-loading, but I don't think those are big issues. Mainly I'm wondering about those three areas. Any help?

Excellent job ER! I hope I can get somewhere in sniffing distance of that time in October, and that will be my sixth marathon.

As to your questions, as a (moderately) experienced marathoner, I'm with you on the training days. I've overtrained a lot in the past in terms of frequency, but replacing junk miles with cycling sounds great. I wouldn't add miles per se, I'd add quality. Two speed work sessions, a pace run, and a long run per week is my thinking, with appropriate rest and maybe cutting back on a speed work session if you feel tired.

This next cycle I'm shooting for three 20+ runs - a 20, a 23, and a 26. I know everybody says that you shouldn't run the distance but I always find myself lacking that energy on the last portion - I don't know if that is just mental or what, but when I get to my max training distance I start to fall apart.

Hydration is really hard for me to get right. I sip water/gatorade until an hour before the start and then stop, and that seems to do well. I overhydrate the days before, so I've got plenty of water in for the carbs I'm loading. I have stopped carrying a fuel belt with me because I tend to drink and pee too much - I end up peeing about once a race at mile 8 or 9 or so, which I'll live with. My last race this worked out perfectly - it was the marathon leg of the Goofy challenge, so it wasn't my best time, but it was probably my best marathon from start to finish under the circumstances.

[ERCougar]

Excellent job ER! I hope I can get somewhere in sniffing distance of that time in October, and that will be my sixth marathon.

As to your questions, as a (moderately) experienced marathoner, I'm with you on the training days. I've overtrained a lot in the past in terms of frequency, but replacing junk miles with cycling sounds great. I wouldn't add miles per se, I'd add quality. Two speed work sessions, a pace run, and a long run per week is my thinking, with appropriate rest and maybe cutting back on a speed work session if you feel tired.

This next cycle I'm shooting for three 20+ runs - a 20, a 23, and a 26. I know everybody says that you shouldn't run the distance but I always find myself lacking that energy on the last portion - I don't know if that is just mental or what, but when I get to my max training distance I start to fall apart.

Hydration is really hard for me to get right. I sip water/gatorade until an hour before the start and then stop, and that seems to do well. I overhydrate the days before, so I've got plenty of water in for the carbs I'm loading. I have stopped carrying a fuel belt with me because I tend to drink and pee too much - I end up peeing about once a race at mile 8 or 9 or so, which I'll live with. My last race this worked out perfectly - it was the marathon leg of the Goofy challenge, so it wasn't my best time, but it was probably my best marathon from start to finish under the circumstances.

Galloway says that people hit the wall at 20 because that's the length of their longest training run. I know there are guys out there who try to get a 30 miler in before the race too. But I also know people who have run a marathon as their last training run (at a slow pace) for the race they really cared about and got hurt. Risky, but it could serve as a sort of dress rehearsal. I'll have to think about that one.

So when you say no fuel belt, you don't carry gels either? Or just don't carry your own fluids?
That was my plan on this one--try to fuel exclusively off powerades--but the powerade shots were so small that I don't think I got nearly enough calories. I still like the idea, but I'm thinking that if I do it, I have to hit every aid station.

[Dwight Schr-ute]

Having never run anything further than 14 miles, I'm not at all qualified to provide much insight into long distance hydration. One thing I've learned about my short time running, I absolutely HATE drinking out of cups while running. As a result, this has started to effect the amount I drink during an organized event. I've been able to cheat through the 10k's and half's but I know that I won't be able to get through St. George on a few sips. This worries me. Having said that, applying my cycling experience, it's always important to drink early. If you're waiting until the second half of the marathon to start drinking, it's likely too late. I would think that, depending on the heat, having something every other aid station would be sufficient.

Another thing to consider is salt. My wife is a big proponent of salt tablets when she runs distance during the summer. There probably isn't enough "electolytes" in the one or two half cups of Gatorade that make it into your system to compensate for the loss of salts sweating out of your system. Since you're not very familiar with how the human body works, I thought I'd educate you a little.

[Pheidippides]

Galloway says that people hit the wall at 20 because that's the length of their longest training run. I know there are guys out there who try to get a 30 miler in before the race too. But I also know people who have run a marathon as their last training run (at a slow pace) for the race they really cared about and got hurt. Risky, but it could serve as a sort of dress rehearsal. I'll have to think about that one.

So when you say no fuel belt, you don't carry gels either? Or just don't carry your own fluids?
That was my plan on this one--try to fuel exclusively off powerades--but the powerade shots were so small that I don't think I got nearly enough calories. I still like the idea, but I'm thinking that if I do it, I have to hit every aid station.

Just no fluids - I do carry gels. I have a race belt that just carries gels and my number. The idea is that the water/gatorade is a lot of weight to truck around for 26.2 miles, whereas it's not so bad if it's just gels.

[Parrot Head]

Just no fluids - I do carry gels. I have a race belt that just carries gels and my number. The idea is that the water/gatorade is a lot of weight to truck around for 26.2 miles, whereas it's not so bad if it's just gels.

What belt do you have? Does it have an option for liquids or is it purely gels, maybe a pouch? I made the mistake of not trying it out before and just stuffing a couple of Hammer Gels in my shorts inner pocket on my half last fall and those large gel packages are not comfortable.

Then I see people on my nearby greenway running with huge bottles and I don't see how they can do it (especially when they don't look like they're training for an ultra). They're all just getting parting gifts on my imaginary Price is Right.

[Eddie]

ER - In all honesty, I get the questions you are asking and wish I had answers myself. Last year I only ran 3X a week going into Ogden, and only hit 20 miles once. But I had negative splits for the marathon and the last 6 miles - when according to Galloway I should've been dying since I never trained for more than 20 - were my fastest of the race. I just don't get it. But I do understand your frustrations.

Here is my Ogden Marathon 2012 Report

Well, things got off to a rough start when I woke up about the time I was supposed to be picking up my friend. So I had about 25 minutes to get up, dressed, eat, collect my stuff, drive 30 miles, find parking, and get on the bus. I’m pretty sure I ran through a fair amount of adrenaline that could’ve come in handy during the race. But I got there.

This put me behind a little from the beginning. I was late getting into the porta johns, ended up starting about 5 minutes after the gun start (thank goodness for timing chip starts) – and it could’ve been worse as I stopped myself 50 yards short of the starting line when I remembered I hadn’t attached the chip to my shoe yet.

Mile 1 - 7:45 I’m feeling good, but I probably went out quicker than I wanted due to all the chaos of the morning. As I near the end of mile 1, I pass the 5:30 pace group taking a walk break.
Mile 2 – 7:51 Another mile, and I pass the 5:00 pace group.
Mile 3 – 7:58
Mile 4 – 7:49 Now I’m passing the 4:30 group. Still feeling good, making good time.
Mile 5 – 7:45
Mile 6 – 7:49 I pass the 4:00 group and I’m feeling really good. I’m pretty optimistic that I’m going to stay under 4 at this point, but I’m starting to wonder if I shouldn’t be holding back a little more. That said, I planned to aim for an 8 minute pace, so this doesn't feel way out of line.
Mile 7 – 7:53
Mile 8 – 7:49 I catch the 3:45 group as the course leaves the canyon and turns north. I’m still feeling pretty good about pacing, etc. The night before I met the 3:25 pacer – who challenged me to join them, saying he would ride me like a rented mule and make sure I made it. While I started late, I start to believe that maybe I can get in under 3:25.
Mile 9 – 7:42
Mile 10 – 7:53
Mile 11 – 7:55
Mile 12 – 7:44
Mile 13 – 7:54 I hit halfway at 1:43. All I have to do is maintain and I’ll come in under 3:30 – which is my outside hope.
Mile 14 – 7:29 Last year went so well that I have decided to walk the steepest part of the hill again while eating a cliff bar. Knowing I have a rest coming, I pick it up just a little going into the hill.
Mile 15 – 9:36
Mile 16 – 7:59
Mile 17 – 7:57
Mile 18 – 7:36 This is the steepest downhill portion of the course, and always tends to be fast.
Mile 19 – 7:52
Mile 20 – 7:36 Last year, right around here I really picked it up and flew. Hoping to recreate the magic, I pick up the pace a little. But even as I do, there is something in the back of my mind that tells me I won’t be able to maintain it. Last year I was chomping at the bit, holding myself back and just waiting for the opportunity to go. This year I'm feeling like my tank is approaching empty. I tell myself to just nut it up and keep running – I’m almost home!
Mile 21 – 7:39
Mile 22 – 7:50
Mile 23 – 7:53 I do a quick body inventory and I can’t decide if I’m out of air or if my legs are tired. I don’t know which, I just know that I can’t go much further.
Mile 24 – 8:46 I know I’m done. My dream of finishing at 3:25 quickly vanishes as I decide I won’t even break 3:30.
Mile 25 – 10:53 I finish mile 24 and just can’t continue. I have to walk for a minute, which turns into a quarter mile or so. I check my watch and discover that if I can get myself running again and keep it under a 10 min pace I can still PR. I’m not sure how, but I get my legs moving again and finish out the race.
Mile 26 – 9:25
To the Finish – 2:59

Official Race Time: 3:33

In all honesty, I’m pretty happy with the time – and in particular happy to have a new PR. But the last three miles left a bad taste in my mouth. Especially compared to last year, when my last 6 miles were my fastest of the race.

I do think it is tough to come down hill through the canyon, and then hit the bottom and suddenly you are on this little trail that has some ups and downs on it. And it was a bit of a dirty trick to get off the trail and run North a block before hitting the final straightaway. That was a new detour this year that I wasn’t ready for.

Anyway – it was a fun race. It is always well supported, has great volunteers, and is a good route to run. I’m just trying to wrap by brain around the dichotomy of being happy with how I ran overall and the new PR, while also being disappointed by how I finished the last three miles.

[bluegoose]

Congrats to ERC and Eddie for a job well done in Ogden. Those are both really good times, despite both of your racer's regrets.

I've felt like crap after 2 of my 3 marathons. The one I felt best about, my second, wasn't because I finished at my intended time, but rather because I improved by nearly 40 minutes from my debut effort.

The training programs that I follow are typically paced for a 3:30 finish time. So that is the time that I always shoot for when my toe hits the starting line. I have never come close to that time, whether it be due to injury or hitting the wall at a most unfortunate time on race day.

It feels lousy for a week or two, but it provides a ton of motivation for me to keep coming back to get better the next time around. I am by no means the fastest or most efficient runner. But I know i have it in me, so I will likely keep trying until it all comes together on race day.

Then I will have to find something else to motivate me to get out of bed on Monday morning to keep me in shape.

[ERCougar]

ER - In all honesty, I get the questions you are asking and wish I had answers myself. Last year I only ran 3X a week going into Ogden, and only hit 20 miles once. But I had negative splits for the marathon and the last 6 miles - when according to Galloway I should've been dying since I never trained for more than 20 - were my fastest of the race. I just don't get it. But I do understand your frustrations.

Here is my Ogden Marathon 2012 Report

Well, things got off to a rough start when I woke up about the time I was supposed to be picking up my friend. So I had about 25 minutes to get up, dressed, eat, collect my stuff, drive 30 miles, find parking, and get on the bus. I’m pretty sure I ran through a fair amount of adrenaline that could’ve come in handy during the race. But I got there.

This put me behind a little from the beginning. I was late getting into the porta johns, ended up starting about 5 minutes after the gun start (thank goodness for timing chip starts) – and it could’ve been worse as I stopped myself 50 yards short of the starting line when I remembered I hadn’t attached the chip to my shoe yet.

Mile 1 - 7:45 I’m feeling good, but I probably went out quicker than I wanted due to all the chaos of the morning. As I near the end of mile 1, I pass the 5:30 pace group taking a walk break.
Mile 2 – 7:51 Another mile, and I pass the 5:00 pace group.
Mile 3 – 7:58
Mile 4 – 7:49 Now I’m passing the 4:30 group. Still feeling good, making good time.
Mile 5 – 7:45
Mile 6 – 7:49 I pass the 4:00 group and I’m feeling really good. I’m pretty optimistic that I’m going to stay under 4 at this point, but I’m starting to wonder if I shouldn’t be holding back a little more. That said, I planned to aim for an 8 minute pace, so this doesn't feel way out of line.
Mile 7 – 7:53
Mile 8 – 7:49 I catch the 3:45 group as the course leaves the canyon and turns north. I’m still feeling pretty good about pacing, etc. The night before I met the 3:25 pacer – who challenged me to join them, saying he would ride me like a rented mule and make sure I made it. While I started late, I start to believe that maybe I can get in under 3:25.
Mile 9 – 7:42
Mile 10 – 7:53
Mile 11 – 7:55
Mile 12 – 7:44
Mile 13 – 7:54 I hit halfway at 1:43. All I have to do is maintain and I’ll come in under 3:30 – which is my outside hope.
Mile 14 – 7:29 Last year went so well that I have decided to walk the steepest part of the hill again while eating a cliff bar. Knowing I have a rest coming, I pick it up just a little going into the hill.
Mile 15 – 9:36
Mile 16 – 7:59
Mile 17 – 7:57
Mile 18 – 7:36 This is the steepest downhill portion of the course, and always tends to be fast.
Mile 19 – 7:52
Mile 20 – 7:36 Last year, right around here I really picked it up and flew. Hoping to recreate the magic, I pick up the pace a little. But even as I do, there is something in the back of my mind that tells me I won’t be able to maintain it. Last year I was chomping at the bit, holding myself back and just waiting for the opportunity to go. This year I'm feeling like my tank is approaching empty. I tell myself to just nut it up and keep running – I’m almost home!
Mile 21 – 7:39
Mile 22 – 7:50
Mile 23 – 7:53 I do a quick body inventory and I can’t decide if I’m out of air or if my legs are tired. I don’t know which, I just know that I can’t go much further.
Mile 24 – 8:46 I know I’m done. My dream of finishing at 3:25 quickly vanishes as I decide I won’t even break 3:30.
Mile 25 – 10:53 I finish mile 24 and just can’t continue. I have to walk for a minute, which turns into a quarter mile or so. I check my watch and discover that if I can get myself running again and keep it under a 10 min pace I can still PR. I’m not sure how, but I get my legs moving again and finish out the race.
Mile 26 – 9:25
To the Finish – 2:59

Official Race Time: 3:33

In all honesty, I’m pretty happy with the time – and in particular happy to have a new PR. But the last three miles left a bad taste in my mouth. Especially compared to last year, when my last 6 miles were my fastest of the race.

I do think it is tough to come down hill through the canyon, and then hit the bottom and suddenly you are on this little trail that has some ups and downs on it. And it was a bit of a dirty trick to get off the trail and run North a block before hitting the final straightaway. That was a new detour this year that I wasn’t ready for.

Anyway – it was a fun race. It is always well supported, has great volunteers, and is a good route to run. I’m just trying to wrap by brain around the dichotomy of being happy with how I ran overall and the new PR, while also being disappointed by how I finished the last three miles.

Nice job, Eddie!
It's interesting comparing splits. Our splits are about the same for the first 9 miles, but I slowed down about 15 seconds/mile when I hit the flats around the reservoir, and then by the time we hit the canyon, I couldn't speed up again. I don't know if it's a hydration issue or that I just didn't have it in me. Hopefully, I figure things out in St G.

[Eddie]

Nice job, Eddie!
It's interesting comparing splits. Our splits are about the same for the first 9 miles, but I slowed down about 15 seconds/mile when I hit the flats around the reservoir, and then by the time we hit the canyon, I couldn't speed up again. I don't know if it's a hydration issue or that I just didn't have it in me. Hopefully, I figure things out in St G.

The first year I felt the exact same way. Actually - I think I was over-hydrated as I was really sloshy and felt like I was going to throw up at the end. I typically had drank two cups at each stop.

Last year I cut back to one cup - just water - at each stop and felt great.

I also decided that the reason I died at the end of the race my first year was due to having wiped myself out going up that hill at 14. That really was the beginning of the end for me.

So last year I decided to walk the hill. I also decided that I would eat a cliff or granola bar while walking to put something a little more solid in my stomach and help absorb some of the liquid I was taking in. Last year it really helped. This year I felt much better than my first, but still not as good at last year.

I also am convinced that those gu packets are huge gut bombs for me. So instead of taking them all at once, I take them half at a time but more frequently. I think it helps - but I still was feeling it this year in my stomach. Again - better than the first time, but not as good as I felt last year.

Still - great race overall, ER. I know the feeling of wanting to do better - but coming in under 3:40 is nothing to be sad about.

My buddy that ran it with me came in a little over 6 hrs. Remembering that helps me with perspective...

[ERCougar]

The first year I felt the exact same way. Actually - I think I was over-hydrated as I was really sloshy and felt like I was going to throw up at the end. I typically had drank two cups at each stop.

Last year I cut back to one cup - just water - at each stop and felt great.

I also decided that the reason I died at the end of the race my first year was due to having wiped myself out going up that hill at 14. That really was the beginning of the end for me.

So last year I decided to walk the hill. I also decided that I would eat a cliff or granola bar while walking to put something a little more solid in my stomach and help absorb some of the liquid I was taking in. Last year it really helped. This year I felt much better than my first, but still not as good at last year.

I also am convinced that those gu packets are huge gut bombs for me. So instead of taking them all at once, I take them half at a time but more frequently. I think it helps - but I still was feeling it this year in my stomach. Again - better than the first time, but not as good as I felt last year.

Still - great race overall, ER. I know the feeling of wanting to do better - but coming in under 3:40 is nothing to be sad about.

My buddy that ran it with me came in a little over 6 hrs. Remembering that helps me with perspective...

I ran the hill, and slowly, but I should have walked it, I think.

I talked with my sister's boyfriend last night. He runs a lot of marathons and always trains up to a long of 24, with the logic being that he can run 2 miles longer than his last long run (which fits most training schedules)--it's what he needs mentally. He also said that he never skips a water station. He's a bigger guy like me (6'4), so he sweats a lot (as do I). So he agrees with me on those two changes, but get this one--he PR'ed at Ogden at a 3:20 run-walking it, pure Galloway style. 4 minutes running, 30 seconds walking. He claims that he felt great afterward too. I've heard there are people who run-walk at that time, but he's the first guy who I actually know and believe. I've been reading the message boards about this all morning (yes, I'm a little obsessive...) and there's quite the debate over this issue. Most people have a problem with Galloway's claims that it can help elite runners, and I even think in the sub-3:00 range, it's probably not good or necessary. But most of us peak at 30-40 miles/week, and for us, I wonder if the short recovery breaks are a net benefit. I'm thinking of trying it out. I at least will walk aid stations and hills. I know ultrarunners do this, and my equivalent to their "ultra" is probably a marathon. Why not?