For the the disenchanted and former LDS

[Commando]

I think you are right, joy is not the word. I am not sure what the word is, but I have known the feeling, like when my ex-wifes second and third marriages didn't work out.

schadenfreude

[SeattleUte]

Prologue: I will admit than when I first started pondering this question I was thinking of posting primarily to troll out a response from a specific poster. However, the more I have thought about it the more curious and interested in thoughtful answers I become. I apologize in advance if this comes across as either condescending or so poorly worded as to not merit discussion.

I think it safe to say that most fully invested (a broncoism for the many Utes on here ) members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be happy if a close friend or associate decided to embrace Mormonism and join the church as a result of his example and efforts. My question is for those disenchanted or former members of the church would the opposite also be true? Meaning would there be any sense of sanctification if a active Mormon elected to disavow his religion primarily due to your arguments, advice, or example?

Ah, the old chauvenistic "deep inside they all know it's true and good." Guess what. No we don't! I am sincere in what I post here about Mormonism. I have not raised my kids in it because I think they (particularly my daughters) are better off outside of it. Here is a recent thread that in the aggregate captures pretty well my true feelings.

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showthread.php?t=7327&highlight=substrate

I am here trying to help, not tear down or make miserable. Indeed, I know that there is only a paper thin divide between me and a majority here, perhaps only historical circumstance. I don't mourn for these people. I admire them. I rejoice at anyone who will come unto my sheep's fold.

[SeattleUte]

schadenfreude

You're ignorant.

[Commando]

OH NOES! The delusional apostate called me ignorant!

[smokymountainrain]

Ah, the old chauvenistic "deep inside they all know it's true and good." Guess what. No we don't!

I don't think he is saying this at all.

I am here trying to help, not tear down or make miserable.

FWIW, I believe this to be true.

[KillerDog]

Here is a recent thread that in the aggregate captures pretty well my true feelings.

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showthread.php?t=7327&highlight=substrate

Nice props to my thread. BTW, if I come to your fold can I get out of being executive secretary? They just called me to it and I don't want to do it again.

[Art Vandelay]

Ah, the old chauvenistic "deep inside they all know it's true and good." Guess what. No we don't! I am sincere in what I post here about Mormonism. I have not raised my kids in it because I think they (particularly my daughters) are better off outside of it. Here is a recent thread that in the aggregate captures pretty well my true feelings.

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showthread.php?t=7327&highlight=substrate

I am here trying to help, not tear down or make miserable. Indeed, I know that there is only a paper thin divide between me and a majority here, perhaps only historical circumstance. I don't mourn for these people. I admire them. I rejoice at anyone who will come unto my sheep's fold.

SU you piss me off at times, but you weren't the poster I was referencing. Your posts often make me think and reflect, yes even the board mullah has moments of introspection. I don't often agree with you but I try not to assume that automatically makes me right and you wrong.

I regret I am unable to pen my thoughts and feelings as clear as you do. I don't know if it is the chicken or the egg, but I'm sure your clarity in verse and the lack thereof in mine is due in part to our chosen professions. I don't know what type of law you practice, but assume writing and argument must be a large part of your day. I on the other hand deal with 30-40 people a day and I usually have 2-5 minutes summaries of their findings then give my recommendation or advice with little questioning on their part. CUF constitutes 90% of any writing I do.

I'm curious of a couple facts, which obviously aren't my business, but pique my interest nonetheless.

* How old were you when you made your break from Mormonism? Had you served a mission, been a bishop, etc?
* How much does the teachings of the church influence your daily life. e.g. No dating for your daughters until 16, emergency preparedness, etc?
* If one of your children started meeting with the missionaries and elected to join the church (I'm assuming they are not baptized members) how strongly if at all would you discourage her choice?

[byu71]

Ah, the old chauvenistic "deep inside they all know it's true and good." Guess what. No we don't! I am sincere in what I post here about Mormonism. I have not raised my kids in it because I think they (particularly my daughters) are better off outside of it. Here is a recent thread that in the aggregate captures pretty well my true feelings.

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showthread.php?t=7327&highlight=substrate

I am here trying to help, not tear down or make miserable. Indeed, I know that there is only a paper thin divide between me and a majority here, perhaps only historical circumstance. I don't mourn for these people. I admire them. I rejoice at anyone who will come unto my sheep's fold.

Perhaps I have judged you wrongly. You have a lot of valuable insight and information and for the most part, I really enjoy your posts.

When it comes to mormonism though, I just have a hard time believing you haven't found a fun place to troll. It is like if I wanted to troll, I would head to utefans and start saying the most grating things to Utes as possible.

[The_Tick]

I am hot and cold on it all at the moment...

One thing I do find funny about "us" though...

My daughter brings a friend to church, friend likes it, friend asks her parents if she can join. Parents are apprehencive but consent anyways. Me and my family and the Ward rejoice greatly.

My daughter is invited to a Baptist church by a friend, she is interested and likes what they do.....

We aren't as willing to be excited and supportive...that makes "us" hypocrites.

[byu71]

I am hot and cold on it all at the moment...

One thing I do find funny about "us" though...

My daughter brings a friend to church, friend likes it, friend asks her parents if she can join. Parents are apprehencive but consent anyways. Me and my family and the Ward rejoice greatly.

My daughter is invited to a Baptist church by a friend, she is interested and likes what they do.....

We aren't as willing to be excited and supportive...that makes "us" hypocrites.

Tick, one thing you are forgetting. We have the truth. That makes however we react OK, even if we don't like seeing the same reaction in others.

That is why it is OK for our fans to belittle and besmearch Kyle's character and yet be terribly upset if someone does the same to Bronco. It is such a comfort in any situation to know you have the truth on your side.

[Jarid in Cedar]

SU you piss me off at times, but you weren't the poster I was referencing.

Out with it then.

[Solon]

Prologue: I will admit than when I first started pondering this question I was thinking of posting primarily to troll out a response from a specific poster. However, the more I have thought about it the more curious and interested in thoughtful answers I become. I apologize in advance if this comes across as either condescending or so poorly worded as to not merit discussion.

I think it safe to say that most fully invested (a broncoism for the many Utes on here ) members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be happy if a close friend or associate decided to embrace Mormonism and join the church as a result of his example and efforts. My question is for those disenchanted or former members of the church would the opposite also be true? Meaning would there be any sense of sanctification if a active Mormon elected to disavow his religion primarily due to your arguments, advice, or example?

I really believe that everyone has to make his or her own path. I grew up in a very conservative LDS household, and my disaffection has only brought me misery: not the misery of the unrighteous, but the misery of a mother who feels like a failure, a wife who breaks into tears whenever I subtly hint that I'm done with the church, angst about condemning a daughter to LDS indoctrination (and what that might cause her down the road), and the discomfort of extreme cognitive dissonance in multiple circumstances.

I much prefer to spare people the pain and upheaval. If people are happy in the church, I would prefer they stay happy in the church, even if they operate under misguided assumptions or misunderstandings of history. If they ask, I don't lie - but I'm not interested in causing a stir.

Like Socrates, Seattle Ute is a gadfly, and in some ways I respect that immensely (we all know what happened to Socrates). But I still see a lot of good people in Mormonism, who care about others, who work very hard, who are dedicated to their families and friends. Why should my personal issues disrupt that, even if some of the points they cling to are "wrong" (in my judgment)?

Kind of a rambling answer, but I just want people to find fulfilment any way they can. Life's too short. I'd rather go to church, be a hypocrite, and play a role than have my mother feel like a failure or see my wife cry over our eternal marriage. Nothing against those of you who have made that choice. In fact, I respect your courage. I'm just not ready to cross that bridge.

[SeattleUte]

* How old were you when you made your break from Mormonism? Had you served a mission, been a bishop, etc?

I served a mission in Ecuador (I was a ZL for 14 months!) and was a ward clerk in my student ward. I apostatized while in college at the University of Utah.

* How much does the teachings of the church influence your daily life. e.g. No dating for your daughters until 16, emergency preparedness, etc?

I believe in the pervasive and transcendent power of Christ as symbol and allegory. For example, as I've stated, religion or religion's concerns and its symbolism have been a preoccupation of much serious art, even today, even when the artist may not realize it. Today's "popular atheits" cannot even argue their cause but in explicit or implicit reference to the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Paul. I am no exception. A fair minded person who believes our culture is essentially good can't exclude Christianity as a but for cause. To the extent the LDS Church is derivative of this tradition, and it very much is, it flows in my veins.

However, I am not influenced by the LDS Church's specific socially conservative prohibitions, nor its magic world view, and in fact in general find them to be atavistic.

* If one of your children started meeting with the missionaries and elected to join the church (I'm assuming they are not baptized members) how strongly if at all would you discourage her choice?

This bare fact would not much move me to intervene. I would hope they're innoculated from the social influences in the LDS church that I consider damaging or unhealthy or wrong, much like many active Mormons here have shown themselves to be. If not, it would be too late, anyway; generally, I try to conduct myself consistent with appreciating that my children's lives are not about me. That is what I have expected from my parents. But something like a daughter dropping out of college and marrying and getting pregnant at age 19 would distress me infinitely more than their becoming active Mormons. (My two eldest children are baptized. The third is eight years old; if his mom wants to do it it's up to her.)

[byu71]

I served a mission in Ecuador (I was a ZL for 14 months!) and was a ward clerk in my student ward. I apostatized while in college at the University of Utah.



I believe in the pervasive and transcendent power of Christ as symbol and allegory. For example, as I've stated, religion or religion's concerns and its symbolism have been a preoccupation of much serious art, even today, even when the artist may not realize it. Today's "popular atheits" cannot even argue their cause but in explicit or implicit reference to the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Paul. I am no exception. A fair minded person who believes our culture is essentially good can't exclude Christianity as a but for cause. To the extent the LDS Church is derivative of this tradition, and it very much is, it flows in my veins.

However, I am not influenced by the LDS Church's specific socially conservative prohibitions, nor its magic world view, and in fact in general find them to be atavistic.



This bare fact would not much move me to intervene. I would hope they're innoculated from the social influences in the LDS church that I consider damaging or unhealthy or wrong, much like many active Mormons here have shown themselves to be. If not, it would be too late, anyway; generally, I try to conduct myself consistent with appreciating that my children's lives are not about me. That is what I have expected from my parents. But something like a daughter dropping out of college and marrying and getting pregnant at age 19 would distress me infinitely more than their becoming active Mormons. (My two eldest children are baptized. The third is eight years old; if his mom wants to do it it's up to her.)

Not that you care or should care, but these posts by you on mormonism I enjoy. Not that I totally agree, but I think they are thoughtful and well expressed.

I don't feel the need to defend my family and their honor.

[Art Vandelay]

I really believe that everyone has to make his or her own path. I grew up in a very conservative LDS household, and my disaffection has only brought me misery: not the misery of the unrighteous, but the misery of a mother who feels like a failure, a wife who breaks into tears whenever I subtly hint that I'm done with the church, angst about condemning a daughter to LDS indoctrination (and what that might cause her down the road), and the discomfort of extreme cognitive dissonance in multiple circumstances.

I much prefer to spare people the pain and upheaval. If people are happy in the church, I would prefer they stay happy in the church, even if they operate under misguided assumptions or misunderstandings of history. If they ask, I don't lie - but I'm not interested in causing a stir.

Like Socrates, Seattle Ute is a gadfly, and in some ways I respect that immensely (we all know what happened to Socrates). But I still see a lot of good people in Mormonism, who care about others, who work very hard, who are dedicated to their families and friends. Why should my personal issues disrupt that, even if some of the points they cling to are "wrong" (in my judgment)?

Kind of a rambling answer, but I just want people to find fulfilment any way they can. Life's too short. I'd rather go to church, be a hypocrite, and play a role than have my mother feel like a failure or see my wife cry over our eternal marriage. Nothing against those of you who have made that choice. In fact, I respect your courage. I'm just not ready to cross that bridge.

A very sincere and thoughtful response, thank you for sharing.