April 2020 General Conference - Global Pandemic Edition

[old_gregg]

said another way: to what do you attribute the gay parent baptism policy (both initially and as revoked)?

[old_gregg]

There are two GA's that I know very well. One has an openly gay son and the other has some inactive/struggling kids. Brilliant, compassionate, salt-of-the-earth guys. This stereotype of stiff, out-of-touch bureaucrats is like most stereotypes - pretty much useless.

first, the profile of the typical non-q12 (and maybe 1q70) ga is pretty different from that of the q12 member. less tenure in a full time ecclesiastical role, more likely to have substantial and recent connections to non-full time church affiliates outside of their family circle, more likely to not be an old white male from the intermountain west, etc. second, my point is not that these are not brilliant, compassionate, salt-of-the-earth people--i think that's true, and i'd add sincerely committed to improving people's lives (in general). i don't think anybody is intentionally sticking their finger in the eyes of the younger generations.

if you're saying that decisions like participation in prop 8, the lgbtq cudgel every conference, the gay parent baptism debacle, less than nuanced treatments of gender, etc., any of which the average <40 year old member could have told you would be an absolute cluster with no upside, come from something other than an innocent disconnect from the audience, that seems to me to be a far more ominous conclusion.

[Bo Diddley]

I'm curious now. What did he say?

Been looking for my notes, but I think I left them at work. I remember he listed a bunch of things and really drive home the need to reach out to each them because you never know what they're going thru--especially those with gender issues. Anyway, he was far from out of touch with the problems they deal with, and showed just how much they (Q12) love and care about the young people.

[All-American]

Who of the brethren grew up in homes with a single mother, or a father who was not a member? Which of the brethren have lost a spouse and remarried, or have lost adult children and grand children to illness; how about those that have lost a spouse and are now experiencing a terrible loneliness as they wait to join their companion in their eternal rest? How often do the brethren speak of their childhoods, or young adult years, or their failures as surgeons and as young fathers and husbands?

How much more public do you wish them to be with their imperfections? You are exercising a curious selective memory here in support of an idea that frankly is just not tenable.

I wonder if this is just a different version of what you see on an individual level. When you go to church on Sunday, you see what appears to your eye to be a flock of true-blue believers, each of whom follows the Word of Wisdom, pays tithing, accepts the Book of Mormon as scripture and Joseph Smith as a prophet, doubts not, fears not, and, for the most part, errs not. Then you get to know them. And it turns out the reality could not be more different from the initial appearance.

If I've learned anything from exposure to leaders of the Church outside of the usual channels, it is that they are people too. Very good ones, to be sure, and they set examples worth following. But they walk life's road same as the rest of us.

[swampfrog]

Who of the brethren grew up in homes with a single mother, or a father who was not a member? Which of the brethren have lost a spouse and remarried, or have lost adult children and grand children to illness; how about those that have lost a spouse and are now experiencing a terrible loneliness as they wait to join their companion in their eternal rest? How often do the brethren speak of their childhoods, or young adult years, or their failures as surgeons and as young fathers and husbands?

How much more public do you wish them to be with their imperfections? You are exercising a curious selective memory here in support of an idea that frankly is just not tenable.

The scriptures speak of the need for leaders to practice extreme distancing from the perfection of Christ. I'm not arguing that they don't speak of their humble circumstances, nor do I find them out of touch, but of speaking in humility as vessels for the word of God, acknowledging their imperfections as messengers.

Take John the Baptist, through the words of St. Thomas Aquinas

He touches on the greatness of Christ’s superiority when he says, the strap of whose sandal I am not worthy to unfasten. As if to say: You must not suppose the he ranks ahead of me in dignity in the way that one man is placed ahead of another, rather he is ranked so far above me that I am nothing in comparison to him. And this is clear from the fact that it is he the strap of whose sandal I am not worthy to unfasten, which is the least service that can be done for men.

Or Nephi:

6 Nevertheless, I do not write anything upon plates save it be that I think it be sacred. And now, if I do err, even did they err of old; not that I would excuse myself because of other men, but because of the weakness which is in me, according to the flesh, I would excuse myself.

17 Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great goodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.

18 I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me.

Or King Benjamin:

10 I have not commanded you to come up hither that ye should fear me, or that ye should think that I of myself am more than a mortal man.

11 But I am like as yourselves, subject to all manner of infirmities in body and mind; yet I have been chosen by this people, and consecrated by my father, and was suffered by the hand of the Lord that I should be a ruler and a king over this people; and have been kept and preserved by his matchless power, to serve you with all the might, mind and strength which the Lord hath granted unto me.

12 I say unto you that as I have been suffered to spend my days in your service, even up to this time, and have not sought gold nor silver nor any manner of riches of you;

They all make the very sincere and humble and possibly even exaggerated attempt to publicly acknowledge their potential lack of worthiness as vessels of divine communication. Very few conference talks open with this kind of humility, though some do. Nephi acknowledges that he may be in err.

I think we could use a little more of this in our time.

[BigFatMeanie]

In part, but as a broader topic of publicizing empty gestures that fall flat because the perception is that there are more pressing issues to address. I have listed a few of these; many other posters have listed a few of these. So if you want to treat this as monolithic rantings of a single person (myself) and dismiss them out of hand... then be my guest.

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

[myboynoah]

Agreed, but I think that is a different issue. Organizations tend to be conservative and slow to change for a variety of reasons - especially religious ones. That doesn't mean that church leaders are insulated and ignorant of the struggles and concerns of everyday members.

Exactly. They have a worldwide organization to manage with a wide range of needs and concerns.

[myboynoah]

There are two GA's that I know very well. One has an openly gay son and the other has some inactive/struggling kids. Brilliant, compassionate, salt-of-the-earth guys. This stereotype of stiff, out-of-touch bureaucrats is like most stereotypes - pretty much useless.

Agreed. My same experience. It is ridiculous to think that they are out of touch with the common issues all families face. They hurt and pine and pray and support their loved ones just like the rest of us.

[Jeff Lebowski]

In part, but as a broader topic of publicizing empty gestures that fall flat because the perception is that there are more pressing issues to address. I have listed a few of these; many other posters have listed a few of these. So if you want to treat this as monolithic rantings of a single person (myself) and dismiss them out of hand... then be my guest.

Sure but I was responding to a specific sub-topic. See my reply to tooblue/swampfrog.

[Walter Sobchak]

Weren't we talking about the church leaders being out of touch with the concerns and struggles of common members?

In part, but as a broader topic of publicizing empty gestures that fall flat because the perception is that there are more pressing issues to address. I have listed a few of these; many other posters have listed a few of these. So if you want to treat this as monolithic rantings of a single person (myself) and dismiss them out of hand... then be my guest.

[MartyFunkhouser]

This is still boring. Stop being boring.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Stake conference and gen conf are night and day.
What walter said. There's something about the organization effect. Is Sterling McMurrin who's written a lot about the organizational effects on the church??
I don't think there's anything that can be done about it. Organizations want to preserve themselves, and it's a very conservative organization that doesn't want to change in fundamental ways.

Agreed, but I think that is a different issue. Organizations tend to be conservative and slow to change for a variety of reasons - especially religious ones. That doesn't mean that church leaders are insulated and ignorant of the struggles and concerns of everyday members.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Come on. As individuals, sure. As a body politic, bureaucratic to a T.

Corporate lackey indeed!

Vuvuzela indeed!

Weren't we talking about the church leaders being out of touch with the concerns and struggles of common members?

[Brian]

There are two GA's that I know very well. One has an openly gay son and the other has some inactive/struggling kids. Brilliant, compassionate, salt-of-the-earth guys. This stereotype of stiff, out-of-touch bureaucrats is like most stereotypes - pretty much useless.

Stake conference and gen conf are night and day.
What walter said. There's something about the organization effect. Is Sterling McMurrin who's written a lot about the organizational effects on the church??
I don't think there's anything that can be done about it. Organizations want to preserve themselves, and it's a very conservative organization that doesn't want to change in fundamental ways.

[tooblue]

There are two GA's that I know very well. One has an openly gay son and the other has some inactive/struggling kids. Brilliant, compassionate, salt-of-the-earth guys. This stereotype of stiff, out-of-touch bureaucrats is like most stereotypes - pretty much useless.

I can't believe I forgot to mention the silver wolf who was a refugee ... life isn't as easy as it looks for anyone.