The Church

[JohnnyLingo]

Recent discussions on CUF have me thinking about the relationship between the Church and God. Plenty of individuals here take issue with things the Church does or says (Family Proclamation, blacks and the priesthood, etc. etc. etc. etc.). Yet no one rails against God, not even SU.

I'm just wondering how everyone (this does not include SU) deals with the disconnect of believing the Church is God's church, yet disagreeing so intensely with what it does.

Because if God is the one calling the shots on said troubling aspects of the Church, then your argument is with Him, right?

And on the other hand, if God is not calling the shots, at what point is the Church going rogue and just making stuff up? When do you reach the point of Jarid in Cedar and just leave?

[SeattleUte]

Recent discussions on CUF have me thinking about the relationship between the Church and God. Plenty of individuals here take issue with things the Church does or says (Family Proclamation, blacks and the priesthood, etc. etc. etc. etc.). Yet no one rails against God, not even SU.

I'm just wondering how everyone (this does not include SU) deals with the disconnect of believing the Church is God's church, yet disagreeing so intensely with what it does.

Because if God is the one calling the shots on said troubling aspects of the Church, then your argument is with Him, right?

And on the other hand, if God is not calling the shots, at what point is the Church going rogue and just making stuff up? When do you reach the point of Jarid in Cedar and just leave?

I am not the only one here who does not believe the LDS Church is "God's church," buddy.

[TripletDaddy]

Recent discussions on CUF have me thinking about the relationship between the Church and God. Plenty of individuals here take issue with things the Church does or says (Family Proclamation, blacks and the priesthood, etc. etc. etc. etc.). Yet no one rails against God, not even SU.

I'm just wondering how everyone (this does not include SU) deals with the disconnect of believing the Church is God's church, yet disagreeing so intensely with what it does.

Because if God is the one calling the shots on said troubling aspects of the Church, then your argument is with Him, right?

And on the other hand, if God is not calling the shots, at what point is the Church going rogue and just making stuff up? When do you reach the point of Jarid in Cedar and just leave?

You've tried this argument before. It fell flat previously because it contains all sorts of erroneous assumptions. You still have not corrected the flaws.

[byu71]

Recent discussions on CUF have me thinking about the relationship between the Church and God. Plenty of individuals here take issue with things the Church does or says (Family Proclamation, blacks and the priesthood, etc. etc. etc. etc.). Yet no one rails against God, not even SU.

I'm just wondering how everyone (this does not include SU) deals with the disconnect of believing the Church is God's church, yet disagreeing so intensely with what it does.

Because if God is the one calling the shots on said troubling aspects of the Church, then your argument is with Him, right?

And on the other hand, if God is not calling the shots, at what point is the Church going rogue and just making stuff up? When do you reach the point of Jarid in Cedar and just leave?

The Church is an organization. The Gospel is God's word. At least that is my belief. The Church is run by men with God's approval. That doesn't mean everything they do is what God would do. Free agency applies to those chosen to lead the church.

If you extended your proposition about God and his church, you would have to believe in the myth that all callings are made through inspiration and revelation. I would then like to have you explain how God would reveal the calling of a Bishop who would go on to molest someone.

Therefor, I can easily in my mind have disagreements with leadership while still supporting them as leaders.

[JohnnyLingo]

I am not the only one here who does not believe the LDS Church is "God's church," buddy.

Sorry for singling you out. I figured you'd feel special, not insulted.

[JohnnyLingo]

If you extended your proposition about God and his church, you would have to believe in the myth that all callings are made through inspiration and revelation.

What proposition? I never said I believe God approves of everything the Church does.

But my follow-up question still applies.... at what point do you see the Church as being not worth your time anymore? Or is there no such point?

[falafel]

I don't think God is a micro-manager. I think he makes sure we get the "big" things right, but then leaves the leadership to decide some of the "smaller" issues. They frequently get those ones wrong, but later correct them. Or, maybe they shouldn't be involved in them at all.

At the end of the day, most of the periphery really doesn't matter. Each person has to work out their individual salvation on their own, and by-and-large that is a conversation between the person and their Maker.

[byu71]

What proposition? I never said I believe God approves of everything the Church does.

But my follow-up question still applies.... at what point do you see the Church as being not worth your time anymore? Or is there no such point?

When it no longer enhances my relationship with God.

[JohnnyLingo]

When it no longer enhances my relationship with God.

Very vague.

I don't think God is a micro-manager. I think he makes sure we get the "big" things right, but then leaves the leadership to decide some of the "smaller" issues. They frequently get those ones wrong, but later correct them. Or, maybe they shouldn't be involved in them at all.

At the end of the day, most of the periphery really doesn't matter. Each person has to work out their individual salvation on their own, and by-and-large that is a conversation between the person and their Maker.

I agree with this pretty much 100%. But humor me... is there something the Church could so that would convince you to leave it?

[byu71]

[QUOTE=JohnnyLingo;121990]Very vague.



/QUOTE]


Sure it is. I worry about working out my own salvation, not yours.

What if I told you I would leave the church if someone farted in the middle of Sacrament. How does that explain how I feel anymore than what I said.

As long as overall the church is helping my relationship with God, I will be a part of it. I don't understand what more specifics you would need.

[JohnnyLingo]

Sure it is. I worry about working out my own salvation, not yours.

I'm just curious, sorry for making you angry.

You don't need to participate in this thread if you feel I am being nosy.

[Swimmer]

Recent discussions on CUF have me thinking about the relationship between the Church and God. Plenty of individuals here take issue with things the Church does or says (Family Proclamation, blacks and the priesthood, etc. etc. etc. etc.). Yet no one rails against God, not even SU.

I'm just wondering how everyone (this does not include SU) deals with the disconnect of believing the Church is God's church, yet disagreeing so intensely with what it does.

Because if God is the one calling the shots on said troubling aspects of the Church, then your argument is with Him, right?

And on the other hand, if God is not calling the shots, at what point is the Church going rogue and just making stuff up? When do you reach the point of Jarid in Cedar and just leave?

In my opinion, the Gospel and the Church are VASTLY different entities. This is why you will never hear me claim that I know the church is true. In fact, I cringe just a bit whenever I hear members say it while sharing their testimonies. Personally, I know the gospel of Jesus Christ is true, and I also know that the church is God's vehicle for spreading and administering the gospel on the earth, but the church is not the gospel, and it certainly has some issues that are difficult for me to accept and/or understand.

While saying the church leaders are "just making stuff up" is a bit uncomfortable for me to do, I definitely believe there have been lots of decisions made that did not actually involve God's guidance...even some pretty big ones.

As for just leaving the church, it used to be seemingly impossible for me to even consider, but I am CLEARLY starting to see why people do so. Even people with strong testimonies of the gospel can become disenfranchised with the politics of the church. While, I do not attend meetings regularly, I absolutely consider myself a Latter-Day-Saint and would love to return to full activity at some point.

[falafel]

I agree with this pretty much 100%. But humor me... is there something the Church could so that would convince you to leave it?

I suppose there is something the Church could do that would make me leave. I don't think the Church would ever do it, however. Basically, it would have to be something so drastic and overt that I could not reconcile the Church and what I know of God. I won't give you an example, but I dont' think the Church will ever get to that (personal) point.

[KillerDog]

Recent discussions on CUF have me thinking about the relationship between the Church and God. Plenty of individuals here take issue with things the Church does or says (Family Proclamation, blacks and the priesthood, etc. etc. etc. etc.). Yet no one rails against God, not even SU.

I'm just wondering how everyone (this does not include SU) deals with the disconnect of believing the Church is God's church, yet disagreeing so intensely with what it does.

Because if God is the one calling the shots on said troubling aspects of the Church, then your argument is with Him, right?

And on the other hand, if God is not calling the shots, at what point is the Church going rogue and just making stuff up? When do you reach the point of Jarid in Cedar and just leave?

I've found that a study of Church history resolves this question. There is an exageration concerning the amount of inspiration and revelation that drives the Church. As a result, the Church does many things that God doesn't stop. I think many of those things God wouldn't do if he were actually running the day to day organization. In many ways, my image of God resembles Lavell Edwards. He is a great delegator and allows those he delegates to the authority to mess up. He does reign them in if they get too far afield.

[SeattleUte]

I've found that a study of Church history resolves this question. There is an exageration concerning the amount of inspiration and revelation that drives the Church. As a result, the Church does many things that God doesn't stop. I think many of those things God wouldn't do if he were actually running the day to day organization. In many ways, my image of God resembles Lavell Edwards. He is a great delegator and allows those he delegates to the authority to mess up. He does reign them in if they get too far afield.

The other possiblity is that God isn't involved. That's what most rational people care to examine the situation conclude.

I see your Lavelle Edwards analogy. Reading the OT it seems to me God has a problem winning in the post season. Things go along fine for a long time then pretty much invariably everything turns to shit. But I don't think God advocated the Israelites only scheduling patsy opponents.