LDS Racism?? Eh...

[The Fourth Nephite]

I am happy to have played your game and provided you some fun.

Although familiar with the trolling technique you used, not having ever seen you post before, I gave you the beneit of the doubt.

I made my premise crystal clear starting from my first post. Sorry if you can't recognize the sarcasm in some of my later posts in this thread. I thought it was pretty clear when I wrote it.

Why would I go from saying the priesthood ban is less worse than slavery to saying slavery was no big deal and the slaves liked being slaves? That's makes no sense. It would weaken my original arguement. I was being *sarcastic*. I was mocking the counter premise that I don't agree with.

Not trying to trick you or play you. Maybe trying to play wuppy, but he started it (with the name calling and all).

[Jarid in Cedar]

I made my premise crystal clear starting from my first post. Sorry if you can't recognize the sarcasm in some of my later posts in this thread. I thought it was pretty clear when I wrote it.

Why would I go from saying the priesthood ban is less worse than slavery to saying slavery was no big deal and the slaves liked being slaves? That's makes no sense. It would weaken my original arguement. I was being *sarcastic*. I was mocking the counter premise that I don't agree with.

Not trying to trick you or play you. Maybe trying to play wuppy, but he started it (with the name calling and all).

So what was the counter premise?

[UtahDan]

I'm having a tough time following the premise of this thread. Why doesn't someone link some quotes from the Baptist prophets of God and the Methodist prophets of God regarding race during that era. Then we can compare them to what the Mormon prophets of God said and figure out how everyone stacks up.

[UtahDan]

Not trying to trick you or play you. Maybe trying to play wuppy, but he started it (with the name calling and all).

Wuap reminds me a lot of an autistic/Asberegers deacon I had. He would focused on nonsense and not let go of it and act inexplicably and sometimes be very difficult. Then two seconds later I would ask a lesson question and he would give an answer that most adults couldn't give and I would get a reminder that he was very, very smart.

[byu71]

I'm having a tough time following the premise of this thread. Why doesn't someone link some quotes from the Baptist prophets of God and the Methodist prophets of God regarding race during that era. Then we can compare them to what the Mormon prophets of God said and figure out how everyone stacks up.

That would be interesting. However, the relevance would be different for those who believe in a Prophet and those who don't.

For those who don't, I believe you can find all sorts of religious leaders who have said things most would disagree with, especially knowing what we know now and looking back. Therefor, no difference.
'
For the believer, there is a different problem. Does a prophet or apostle always speak for God. Those who think their every word isn't necessarily God's word can handle disagreements.

I think it is a much bigger issue for those who believe their every word is God's word.

[The Fourth Nephite]

So what was the counter premise?

Something like Mormons are terrible and the South is great. Give or take.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Something like Mormons are terrible and the South is great. Give or take.

My assessment was whether you take 1st, 2nd or 3rd in a shit eating contest, you still come out smelling like shit.

[wuapinmon]

Wuap reminds me a lot of an autistic/Asberegers deacon I had. He would focused on nonsense and not let go of it and act inexplicably and sometimes be very difficult. Then two seconds later I would ask a lesson question and he would give an answer that most adults couldn't give and I would get a reminder that he was very, very smart.

This compliment offends me and makes me purr with delight at the same time.

[SeattleUte]

I have only scanned this thread. I agree with those that said it started out as an inartful troll. However, it does appear that the thread has gotten more substantial.

Regardless, comparing the LDS Church with old world religion really evinces spectacular ignorance about human history and our society's unprecedented achievements with respect to civil liberties and representative governments, including religion's role in these events, for better or worse.

First, of course the Mormon Church can make favorable comparisons with old world relgions. The Mormon Church was born in the United States! The Mormon Church has grown up as part of the apotheosis of the thousands of years old human struggle against tyranny and intolerance. Perhaps the hardest part of this was figuring out the evils of tyranny and intolerance.

But here's the part that should shame thinking Mormons. Mormonism has been made more enlightened and kinder and gentler, a more humane, constructive institution by America's secular society, not the other way around. On the contrary, Mormonism has resisted secular America's civilizing incluence (itself a continuous work in progress) in most instances. Mormonism is still backward in its treatment of women and gays.

Yes, Catholicism begat the inquisition. But we can also thank Catholicism for being perhaps the major but for cause of Europe, which brought us Augustine, Isaac Newton, Spinoza (no one talks much about the SYMBIOSIS that has existed between Judaism and Christian Europe over the past millenia, even amid all the persecution and genocide of Jews), the Renaissance, the intsitution of the university, the Enlightenment, Adam Smith, John Locke, our tastes in music, architecture and to some extent literature, Galileo, etc. etc. etc. (Until the Protestant Reformation, which occurred as a reaction to the Renaissance, the word Catholic had none of the significance it does today. When scholars talk about "Christianity's" enormous influence on the development of Western Civilization, in terms of developments before the Protestant Reformation they are only talking about Catholicism.)

Moreover, yes, American Protestantism has spawned and institutionalized much racism, but it also was a major exponent of the abolitionist movement, the Civil Rights movement, women's sufferage, etc.

From an empirical standpoint, these older sects even spawned Mormonism. One of my biggest objections to Mormonism has been its inability to see itself in a historical context, to recognize its debt to the past and to greater America, including the Christian elements of it. Traditionally, Mormons have seen themselves from a very skewed, magic world view in which history began less than two hundred years ago.

Sure, over the past two thousand years you can find religion behind a lot of tyranny. Mormonism less so, because it was born relatively recently in a nation with institutionalized separation of church and state and representative government. Given Mormonism's time and place in history, it really has had little opportunity evince religion's worst tendencies. Meanwhile, other older religions have led or participated in or learned from the national and ultimately worldwide struggle against racism, bigotry, supersticion, and despotism.

I wish Mormonism could say the same for itself. It has received more than it has given in terms of our culture's moral growth (to put it mildly; I'm not sure what it has contributed that is uniuqe to Mormonism). Mormonism represents in fact an effort to turn back the clock hundreds of years.

[SeattleUte]

You know what, I think 4th Nephite has a point. Why criticize the church for a racist policy when so many other churches have committed so many other crimes that are so much worse? It's not like we ever held inquisitions or slaughtered innocent masses. Why all the fuss over not giving blacks extra assignments?

I'm really surprised at you writing something this inane. I know you know better.

[byu71]

I'm really surprised at you writing something this inane. I know you know better.

Sounds exactly like how my Bishop talked to me when I was a teenager.

[SeattleUte]

Sounds exactly like how my Bishop talked to me when I was a teenager.

You know, the jokes on me! I just realized AA was being sarcastic, or maybe ironic is a better word for it.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I have only scanned this thread. I agree with those that said it started out as an inartful troll. However, it does appear that the thread has gotten more substantial.

Regardless, comparing the LDS Church with old world religion really evinces spectacular ignorance about human history and our society's unprecedented achievements with respect to civil liberties and representative governments, including religion's role in these events, for better or worse.

First, of course the Mormon Church can make favorable comparisons with old world relgions. The Mormon Church was born in the United States! The Mormon Church has grown up as part of the apotheosis of the thousands of years old human struggle against tyranny and intolerance. Perhaps the hardest part of this was figuring out the evils of tyranny and intolerance.

But here's the part that should shame thinking Mormons. Mormonism has been made more enlightened and kinder and gentler, a more humane, constructive institution by America's secular society, not the other way around. On the contrary, Mormonism has resisted secular America's civilizing incluence (itself a continuous work in progress) in most instances. Mormonism is still backward in its treatment of women and gays.

Yes, Catholicism begat the inquisition. But we can also thank Catholicism for being perhaps the major but for cause of Europe, which brought us Augustine, Isaac Newton, Spinoza (no one talks much about the SYMBIOSIS that has existed between Judaism and Christian Europe over the past millenia, even amid all the persecution and genocide of Jews), the Renaissance, the intsitution of the university, the Enlightenment, Adam Smith, John Locke, our tastes in music, architecture and to some extent literature, Galileo, etc. etc. etc. (Until the Protestant Reformation, which occurred as a reaction to the Renaissance, the word Catholic had none of the significance it does today. When scholars talk about "Christianity's" enormous influence on the development of Western Civilization, in terms of developments before the Protestant Reformation they are only talking about Catholicism.)

Moreover, yes, American Protestantism has spawned and institutionalized much racism, but it also was a major exponent of the abolitionist movement, the Civil Rights movement, women's sufferage, etc.

From an empirical standpoint, these older sects even spawned Mormonism. One of my biggest objections to Mormonism has been its inability to see itself in a historical context, to recognize its debt to the past and to greater America, including the Christian elements of it. Traditionally, Mormons have seen themselves from a very skewed, magic world view in which history began less than two hundred years ago.

Sure, over the past two thousand years you can find religion behind a lot of tyranny. Mormonism less so, because it was born relatively recently in a nation with institutionalized separation of church and state and representative government. Given Mormonism's time and place in history, it really has had little opportunity evince religion's worst tendencies. Meanwhile, other older religions have led or participated in or learned from the national and ultimately worldwide struggle against racism, bigotry, supersticion, and despotism.

I wish Mormonism could say the same for itself. It has received more than it has given in terms of our culture's moral growth (to put it mildly; I'm not sure what it has contributed that is uniuqe to Mormonism). Mormonism represents in fact an effort to turn back the clock hundreds of years.

HEY! The contest is over. Wuap won.

[il Padrino Ute]

I have only scanned this thread. I agree with those that said it started out as an inartful troll. However, it does appear that the thread has gotten more substantial.

Regardless, comparing the LDS Church with old world religion really evinces spectacular ignorance about human history and our society's unprecedented achievements with respect to civil liberties and representative governments, including religion's role in these events, for better or worse.

First, of course the Mormon Church can make favorable comparisons with old world relgions. The Mormon Church was born in the United States! The Mormon Church has grown up as part of the apotheosis of the thousands of years old human struggle against tyranny and intolerance. Perhaps the hardest part of this was figuring out the evils of tyranny and intolerance.

But here's the part that should shame thinking Mormons. Mormonism has been made more enlightened and kinder and gentler, a more humane, constructive institution by America's secular society, not the other way around. On the contrary, Mormonism has resisted secular America's civilizing incluence (itself a continuous work in progress) in most instances. Mormonism is still backward in its treatment of women and gays.

Yes, Catholicism begat the inquisition. But we can also thank Catholicism for being perhaps the major but for cause of Europe, which brought us Augustine, Isaac Newton, Spinoza (no one talks much about the SYMBIOSIS that has existed between Judaism and Christian Europe over the past millenia, even amid all the persecution and genocide of Jews), the Renaissance, the intsitution of the university, the Enlightenment, Adam Smith, John Locke, our tastes in music, architecture and to some extent literature, Galileo, etc. etc. etc. (Until the Protestant Reformation, which occurred as a reaction to the Renaissance, the word Catholic had none of the significance it does today. When scholars talk about "Christianity's" enormous influence on the development of Western Civilization, in terms of developments before the Protestant Reformation they are only talking about Catholicism.)

Moreover, yes, American Protestantism has spawned and institutionalized much racism, but it also was a major exponent of the abolitionist movement, the Civil Rights movement, women's sufferage, etc.

From an empirical standpoint, these older sects even spawned Mormonism. One of my biggest objections to Mormonism has been its inability to see itself in a historical context, to recognize its debt to the past and to greater America, including the Christian elements of it. Traditionally, Mormons have seen themselves from a very skewed, magic world view in which history began less than two hundred years ago.

Sure, over the past two thousand years you can find religion behind a lot of tyranny. Mormonism less so, because it was born relatively recently in a nation with institutionalized separation of church and state and representative government. Given Mormonism's time and place in history, it really has had little opportunity evince religion's worst tendencies. Meanwhile, other older religions have led or participated in or learned from the national and ultimately worldwide struggle against racism, bigotry, supersticion, and despotism.

I wish Mormonism could say the same for itself. It has received more than it has given in terms of our culture's moral growth (to put it mildly; I'm not sure what it has contributed that is uniuqe to Mormonism). Mormonism represents in fact an effort to turn back the clock hundreds of years.

Yawn.

When are you going to post something fresh?

[wuapinmon]

Yawn.

When are you going to post something fresh?

And wasn't Augustine a Berber? No matter though, I don't care what he was; I hate that Manichean original-sin-promulgating-Pelagius-hating sumbitch.*









* Just clarifying that my dislike of Augustine is of the man, not his extraordinary intellect and his profound influence on WC.