Abandoned LDS Churches

[Katy Lied]

But he does have some blind spots on this issue.

The Best of us have theM.

[Topper]

The Best of us have theM.

Speak for yourself, me Lady. What about the worst of us?

[Katy Lied]

I'm no lady, but if I were I'd like to be addressed as Mi'lady, thank you.
It's no secret that I am an admirer of ByMa.

[Bo Diddley]

I'm no lady, but if I were I'd like to be addressed as Mi'lady, thank you.
It's no secret that I am an admirer of ByMa.

As you said, we all have our blind spots...

[Topper]

I'm no lady, but if I were I'd like to be addressed as Mi'lady, thank you.
It's no secret that I am an admirer of ByMa.

Mi'lady it is then.

[Green Monstah]

Yeah, that was overly harsh. Walker/Turley referenced his work quite extensively in their book. But he does have some blind spots on this issue.

I've heard recordings of Turley addressing church historical issues, and I'd find it hard to trust his published work based on the spin I heard. Is he better in print?

[creekster]

I have read both the Juanita Brooks and the Walker/Turley books on the MMM. Both are excellent, but in different ways. Juanita Brooks' book was groundbreaking and well-written, but her access to records was a little limited (pre-internet for starters). The Walker/Turley book is the most thoroughly researched book and the most authoritative. It is well-balanced and has been highly praised by reviewers, inside and outside the church.

There is overwhelming evidence that BY did not order the MMM. You have to understand all the circumstances at the time to appreciate that, but I am thoroughly convinced after reading these two books. This was a sequence of events that spiraled out of control and there were spot judgments made by local leaders that are horrific in hindsight. But there was no BY-directed conspiracy to wipe out the wagon train. On the contrary, they sent a runner to BY and he ordered them to not attack the train but word arrived too late.

Have not read the Bagley book yet, but I have read and watched interviews with him addressing the BY question. He has zero evidence to support the idea that BY directed it, other than, "BY controlled everything at the time." That isn't evidence.

At the same time, there is lots of evidence that BY participated in a cover up and tampered with the judicial system as part of the aftermath in order to limit blowback on the church. Supposedly, Walker and Turley are writing a book on that part. Brooks covered it quite well in her book.

I agree with you here except for one thing. That BY controlled everything is absolutely evidence. How can it not be evidence? It might not be persuasive or conclusive but it certainly is relevant and material. That said, I agree with your conclusion and assessment otherwise.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I agree with you here except for one thing. That BY controlled everything is absolutely evidence. How can it not be evidence? It might not be persuasive or conclusive but it certainly is relevant and material. That said, I agree with your conclusion and assessment otherwise.

He didn't literally control everything. And a blanket statement like that does not mean he ordered the massacre.

[creekster]

Abandoned LDS Churches

He didn't literally control everything. And a blanket statement like that does not mean he ordered the massacre.

Right. Like I said it isn't necessarily persuasive or conclusive, but it is evidence. Moreover, Bagley doesn't just make that bald assertion, as I recall, he supports it with examples of the things BY did control. That does not mean you're wrong, and I agree with you (so stay calm), but it is evidence.

[tooblue]

Right. Like I said it isn't necessarily persuasive or conclusive, but it is evidence. Moreover, Bagley doesn't just make that bald assertion, as I recall, he supports it with examples of the things BY did control. That does not mean you're wrong, and I agree with you (so stay calm), but it is evidence.

So, for my understanding and to draw a comparison (which may be a terrible comparison but ...), if there is evidence to suggest that Jeff Lebowski, as principle of this message board, controls everything that occurs on this message board. I, therefore, can state that Jeff Lebowski, exclusively, is responsible for changing the focus and the name of this message board. Metaphorically 'massacring' supporters of Utah sports and chasing them from our midsts?

[Jeff Lebowski]

I've heard recordings of Turley addressing church historical issues, and I'd find it hard to trust his published work based on the spin I heard. Is he better in print?

Not sure how to answer that as you are asking me a relate something to your own subjective experience.

They worked on the book for 10 years and were told to fully disclose everything they found and they were given full access to the First Presidency archives. It is the best and most complete book yet on the topic and is well balanced.

[creekster]

So, for my understanding and to draw a comparison (which may be a terrible comparison but ...), if there is evidence to suggest that Jeff Lebowski, as principle of this message board, controls everything that occurs on this message board. I, therefore, can state that Jeff Lebowski, exclusively, is responsible for changing the focus and the name of this message board. Metaphorically 'massacring' supporters of Utah sports and chasing them from our midsts?

Of course. Especially if it's Lebowski.

[creekster]

Not sure how to answer that as you are asking me a relate something to your own subjective experience.

They worked on the book for 10 years and were told to fully disclose everything they found and they were given full access to the First Presidency archives. It is the best and most complete book yet on the topic and is well balanced.

Like you I have no idea what spin turley might have put on any given topic in person, but the book is very good.

[Northwestcoug]

I think most people agree that BY lied and acted unethically after the massacre. And the hysteria that led to the massacre has BY's fingerprints all over it. He did, after all, declare martial law before the immigrants entered Utah. Those facts are significant enough to be added to the epitaph of Young. But it is a big stretch to think he ordered it, or at least was aware of it and did nothing to prevent it.

[Green Monstah]

Not sure how to answer that as you are asking me a relate something to your own subjective experience.

They worked on the book for 10 years and were told to fully disclose everything they found and they were given full access to the First Presidency archives. It is the best and most complete book yet on the topic and is well balanced.

You answered it.