Mormon WikiLeaks (MormonLeaks)

[wuapinmon]

Nope, you didn't.

You talkin' Deism?
Molinism?
Prelapsarian Calvinism?
Infralapsarian Calvinism?
Postlapsarian Calvinism?
Thomas Aquinas and God existing outside of time and seeing then and now and tomorrow as one?
Occamism?
Theodicy?
Jakob Böhme?
Or are you just being a bitch about an apostrophe?

Nailed it!

Keep on mockin' in the free world.

[old_gregg]

Prelapsarian

yikes this is a family sports chat blog please keep it clean

[wuapinmon]

yikes this is a family sports chat blog please keep it clean

pre-, not pro-, bro.

[Topper]

Doesn't the merit of what you have written above depend upon how you define criticism? Is criticism, per your ideology, censure or denunciation, or do you truly mean disapproval, based on perceived faults? If the latter, how then do you define faults and mistakes? Are there some faults and mistakes, which are more grave than others, or are all faults and mistakes the same in degree?

Further, what is the standard by which faults and mistakes, worthy of criticism, are measured; is any such standard universal or is it unique to you, and therefore not universal to everyone? It's wonderful, if not comforting, to believe my standard is the standard by which everyone else around me measures faults and mistakes, but is such thinking truly rational?

The real problem then is not that leaders are not criticized, but rather our perceptions concerning what it means to criticize leaders. In the context of faith in the power of discernment through inspiration being available to those who process priesthood keys, what does it mean to criticize ... if the intent is to compel change, in the face of obvious human faults and mistakes, are we not actually referring to counsel, rather than criticism? And must we also not allow for time (long suffering) to be a factor in how effective counsel can be in bring about pertinent change?

It is an interesting discussion, but let's look at a practical decision where the leaders got it wrong.

The policy prohibiting blacks from holding and exercising the priesthood. If you view being a member a good thing and having the priesthood a good thing, then think of all those who could have been included in the LDS Church but weren't because of this monumentally wrong decision.

And then remember those who went against Church counsel and were excommunicated.

In the abstract what you and other apologists write has appeal, but in the times when it really mattered, the LDS Church lost opportunities for growth in communities cou that could have benefited from LDS policies and practices.

Furthermore, Prop 8 stunted the Mormon Moment. One moment, the LDS Church looked at a pinnacle, the next moment, it is hated and loathed and rejected as much or more than Muslims in this country.

So how can bottom dwelling members effect any change in a top down organization?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Sure. Even if they are wrong you shouldn't be a dickhead about it.

Bingo.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Keep on mockin' in the free world.

Sorry, but your post didn't exactly seem crafted to elicit a sincere response. It is neither rewarding nor productive to debate you when you are angry.

[MartyFunkhouser]

Bingo.

But of course they should get passes for being dickheads.

[All-American]

But of course they should get passes for being dickheads.

It is written, if thine enemy is a dickhead, be thou a dickhead.

But I say unto you, be not a dickhead, neither be thou erect when thou art riled and in passion's throe, but be soft and yielding, ever wading in cool pools.

[tooblue]

It is an interesting discussion, but let's look at a practical decision where the leaders got it wrong.

The policy prohibiting blacks from holding and exercising the priesthood. If you view being a member a good thing and having the priesthood a good thing, then think of all those who could have been included in the LDS Church but weren't because of this monumentally wrong decision.

And then remember those who went against Church counsel and were excommunicated.

In the abstract what you and other apologists write has appeal, but in the times when it really mattered, the LDS Church lost opportunities for growth in communities cou that could have benefited from LDS policies and practices.

Furthermore, Prop 8 stunted the Mormon Moment. One moment, the LDS Church looked at a pinnacle, the next moment, it is hated and loathed and rejected as much or more than Muslims in this country.

So how can bottom dwelling members effect any change in a top down organization?

Your 'evidences' presuppose we know the beginning from the end or vice versa. The reality is, we do not know the beginning from the end, precisely because we have no idea what may have happened had certain decisions not been made. Again, perspective is the problem—your perspective on each of the situations you cite above is unequivocally your perspective and not the perspective.

The hard truth is the church has grown and continues to grow, despite your contestations.

Further, are we a top down organization, or bottom up? Is my salvation, or yours dependent upon the current prophet. Emphatically, no. Do the brethren micro-manage every region, Stake and Ward? Emphatically, no. The body of the church manages the body of the church in very intimate, local terms. Where we need prophets is in providing the parameters wherein which our efforts can be correlated and maximized. How can one think outside a box, unless one knows what the box is in the first place?

[Donuthole]

Just when you thought this discussion couldn’t get any more banal, Topper gets out of spousal prison and joins the debate.

[Jeff Lebowski]

But of course they should get passes for being dickheads.

Ha. Marty. You are funny sometimes.

This not Bud's for you -->

[Walter Sobchak]

Elder Eyring.
https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...-call?lang=eng

Appeal to Eyring Fallacy... you lose.

[Walter Sobchak]

Somewhat along the infallibility lines is the following passage from the Gospel Principles lesson this past week:

“The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place”

I intended to skip over it, but the ward mission leader, an older, orthodox type, highlighted it as what he considers the most important passage in the whole lesson.

Was it oxcoug that used the above quote to argue that Joseph Smith was essentially "taken out" by God because instituting polygamy was bullshit? Maybe it was someone else. In any case, you could have some fun bringing that up in your Gospel Principles class.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Was it oxcoug that used the above quote to argue that Joseph Smith was essentially "taken out" by God because instituting polygamy was bullshit? Maybe it was someone else. In any case, you could have some fun bringing that up in your Gospel Principles class.

Adam said that God killed Harold B Lee after a short run to make way for Spencer W Kimball so he could lift the ban. Good times.

[clackamascoug]

Was it oxcoug that used the above quote to argue that Joseph Smith was essentially "taken out" by God because instituting polygamy was bullshit? Maybe it was someone else. In any case, you could have some fun bringing that up in your Gospel Principles class.

I may have said it at one point, and Lebowski may have bowled a 300 with his eye rolls. I suppose others could have come to the same logical conclusion... I don't claim it as an original thought.