Just wanted to give '71 another reason to complain about the Honor Code

[All-American]

I appreciate that. Your point still stands, though, that people will likely see this response and perceive hostility to LGBT groups. Whether it is consistent with a content-neutral policy of making clear when a group does not speak on BYU’s behalf may not matter much.

[MartyFunkhouser]

I appreciate that. Your point still stands, though, that people will likely see this response and perceive hostility to LGBT groups. Whether it is consistent with a content-neutral policy of making clear when a group does not speak on BYU’s behalf may not matter much.

I'm not saying it is right, or accurate, but when the perception is that you are against a certain group of people a content neutral approach will end up looking like discrimination against that group of people.

[MartyFunkhouser]

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021...HvJR9fUmm2RGDA
This was pretty disappointing to read

[Jeff Lebowski]

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021...HvJR9fUmm2RGDA
This was pretty disappointing to read

Me too. Really shoddy reporting.

[MartyFunkhouser]

Me too. Really shoddy reporting.

Regardless of the quality of the reporting, some of those quotes are pretty awful.

[old_gregg]

putting that valedictorian on blast is such a dumb, no-win move. old white man yells at sky because you used to be able to get a patty melt for a nickel and call people the n word.

[Eddie]

Honestly - I expected that from Oaks. Not necessarily from Holland.

I think there is a weird balance to strike - and there is a lot of nuance to it. How to love everyone, even if you don't agree with them. This isn't about choice or choices, I think it's well established that LGBTQ people aren't the way they are strictly due to choice. And yet, there is a choice element when it comes to behavior. I honestly don't know how you talk about it without causing issues for at least some segment of people. And I don't know how you completely portray acceptance and love for individuals while not accepting a piece of who they are.

[old_gregg]

Honestly - I expected that from Oaks. Not necessarily from Holland.

I think there is a weird balance to strike - and there is a lot of nuance to it. How to love everyone, even if you don't agree with them. This isn't about choice or choices, I think it's well established that LGBTQ people aren't the way they are strictly due to choice. And yet, there is a choice element when it comes to behavior. I honestly don't know how you talk about it without causing issues for at least some segment of people. And I don't know how you completely portray acceptance and love for individuals while not accepting a piece of who they are.

easy—just live a life of monastic solitude in a theology that teaches that the sacrament of marriage is a prerequisite to achieving eternal salvation, particularly while all your friends and family constantly wax poetic about the singular importance of their spouse and children in their happiness. no sweat.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Honestly - I expected that from Oaks. Not necessarily from Holland.

I think there is a weird balance to strike - and there is a lot of nuance to it. How to love everyone, even if you don't agree with them. This isn't about choice or choices, I think it's well established that LGBTQ people aren't the way they are strictly due to choice. And yet, there is a choice element when it comes to behavior. I honestly don't know how you talk about it without causing issues for at least some segment of people. And I don't know how you completely portray acceptance and love for individuals while not accepting a piece of who they are.

In spite of how it is being portrayed in the media (esp social media), the talk wasn't that bad.

[Moliere]

putting that valedictorian on blast is such a dumb, no-win move. old white man yells at sky because you used to be able to get a patty melt for a nickel and call people the n word.

Yeah, that part was pretty bad. He basically subtweeted him.

if I haven’t said it before, the church’s policy/doctrine on lgbtq issues is going to cause a lot of inactivity and falling away for the current generation. It’s already happening among my teenagers and their friends and the kids of my friends. Most of these kids support lgbtq rights and are vocal about their support.

i keep thinking these kids will change the church culture/doctrine but we need them around to do it and I’m afraid a lot of them won’t be around in the church to do it.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Yeah, I think he could have made his point without publicly calling out the commencement speaker. That speech was pre-approved by the college, so I guess he was effectively putting the college on blast.

I am guessing that this incident from June played a big role in forming Holland's motivation for the talk:

https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/comme...-davis-we-are/

I am sure the brethren don't appreciate being lectured on how to do their job by BYU faculty in the pages of the SL Trib.

[MartyFunkhouser]

Yeah, I think he could have made his point without publicly calling out the commencement speaker. That speech was pre-approved by the college, so I guess he was effectively putting the college on blast.

I am guessing that this incident from June played a big role in forming Holland's motivation for the talk:

https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/comme...-davis-we-are/

I am sure the brethren don't appreciate being lectured on how to do their job by BYU faculty in the pages of the SL Trib.

Wouldn't that be better addressed through a private meeting with professors and administrators of BYU?

Also, I went and read the transcript of the talk. I disagree with you read of it, it is pretty bad. The rhetoric creates and us vs. them dynamic.

He absolutely puts the individual on blast that came out in his speech. Just because he didn't use his name doesn't mean it wasn't directed at him. Also, what is divisive about someone being honest about their sexuality?

The use of the phrase "live with this same-sex challenge" is absolutely problematic. He then follows that up with preaching about unkindness and cruelty, right after he used a very unkind phrase. Many would also argue that the phrase "live with this same-sex challenge" in and of itself is cruel.

I have a hard time not seeing some real animosity in this statement "confused about what so much recent flag-waving and parade-holding on this issue means."

It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me and it certainly isn't something that will build bridges or reduce animosity.

[old_gregg]

the church continues to be a master of framing itself as the victim

[MartyFunkhouser]

the church continues to be a master of framing itself as the victim

Which is funny considering it is definitely the perpetrator not the victim here. No one every spent millions to advocate that Christians shouldn't be allowed to marry.

[Eddie]

easy—just live a life of monastic solitude in a theology that teaches that the sacrament of marriage is a prerequisite to achieving eternal salvation, particularly while all your friends and family constantly wax poetic about the singular importance of their spouse and children in their happiness. no sweat.

I've probably shared this before - I taught Seminary part-time at Woods Cross HS my last year of college. Coming from a family of educators and not to far removed from a mission, I contemplated entering the CES system.

I don't even know how the conversation came up, as I didn't spend a lot of time talking with HS kids about sex, but one of my students told me that another of the teachers there at the time had done a lesson on morality and the law of chastity, and essentially taught that if we really understood the sacred nature of sexual intercourse, we would only partake of that forbidden fruit within the bounds of a temple marriage and ONLY with the intent to procreate and bring spirits into the world. He went on to tell the kids that he and his wife only bumped uglies when they were trying to get her pregnant - and outside of that they did not have sex.

So - there are some folks working an element of the monastic solitude angle in spite of being married.