Just wanted to give '71 another reason to complain about the Honor Code

[Jeff Lebowski]

I've thought about this a bit.
Fundamentally, having a bishop (for the sake of convenience, I am going to focus on LDS students at the byu; I recognize that there are a few non-LDS byuers) in charge of "Honor Code" issues via the Ecclesiastical Endorsement is a great idea; in practice, though, it would cause some tension between the official standards of "worthiness" for LDS members generally (i.e., the basic temple recommend questions) and the byu's standards of "worthiness" which are a bit more rigorous (short-shorts; beards; opposite-sex roommates).

It would institutionalize what is already in place - two different standards of "worthiness" = one for the LDS community at large, and one for byu students
(BTW, this is the root of the "holier-than-thou" claims that plague the byu - the rules for the byu are more stringent than the rules for temple-worthiness).

The Honor Code is never going away, but I suspect that enforcement of it (whether secular or clerical) is about to get a major overhaul.

Oh yeah, it would require quite a few adjustments. But I would also be fine if you simply realigned the HC standards for LDS students to match temple worthiness standards.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I don't have enough knowledge on this to really speak to whether it is a good idea or not. It may be, although I admit that I think it raises a whole host of issues. I guess the first ones would be these:

1. How do you define intoxicated? Same as driving? 0.08%? How do you determine the intoxication level of someone at the time they had sex?
2. If the answer to #1 is around the DUI level, then a huge number of people are having sex in this condition. Do you think all of these are rape?
.

Here's a new business idea. A condom with a breathalyzer built into to the tip.

"I want to have sex with you, but first I need you to blow on this before I can decide if you can legally consent"

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[MartyFunkhouser]

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[I.J. Reilly]

I've never had a problem with you. If you want to start something, I will go there.

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It's simple, don't start nuthin', won't be nuthin'.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Oh yeah, it would require quite a few adjustments. But I would also be fine if you simply realigned the HC standards for LDS students to match temple worthiness standards.

This.

[falafel]

Can a drunk person consent or not?

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Sometimes.

[MartyFunkhouser]

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[Paperback Writer]

Oh yeah, it would require quite a few adjustments. But I would also be fine if you simply realigned the HC standards for LDS students to match temple worthiness standards.

I agree, as long as students don't have to prove to BYU testing center Gestapo that they are wearing their G's when they go to take a test. Seriously though, I think BYU has made progress in the way it enforces the honor code from when I attended to my kids' attending. Also, there's little question that I feel my daughter would be safer at BYU than at State U as Lebowski mentioned.

[PaloAltoCougar]

Kasich deserved the criticism for promoting rape culture. He should have been emphasizing that a drunk person cannot consent, not focusing on what the victim needed to do to prevent the rape.

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Did you listen to the question and the response? He was hardly promoting rape culture, and mentioned the need for better reporting, stronger responses, etc. His "one bit of advice--don't go to parties where there's alcohol", came at the end and comprises maybe 10% percent of his answer. Most of the things which need to be done to reduce violence against women are societal or institutional in nature and need to be addressed at that level (which Kasich understands and would do), but one of the very few things a woman can do at the individual level is avoid places where rapes are more likely to occur. I admit I'm old and probably out of touch, but I don't get why that should be offensive.

The only thing that Kasich said in his response that bothered me was his antiquated reference to female students as "coeds."

[MartyFunkhouser]

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[Jarid in Cedar]

Can a drunk person consent or not?

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The fact that you didn't(couldn't?) read that as a joke is just plain sad.

To answer your question, yes, a drunk person can give consent. Drunk people make rash decisions, decisions that they wouldn't make if sober, and decisions that they regret later. They also have progressive decrease in fine motor skills, gross motor skills, and reaction time.

Medicolegally, it is similar to a person with dementia. A person with dementia can: 1. determine their own code status 2. Consent to or decline medical procedures or tests. All that has to be ascertained is that the physician and the witness agree that the person is aware and understands the pros/cons of their decision. The demented person may not be capable of managing complex situations such as their finances, wills, trusts, etc, but they are still capable of self determination.

I have been intoxicated well beyond legal limits of driving in my life, and I was capable of making decisions. They may have been foolish decisions, rash decisions, even regrettable decisions, but I knew I was making them.

If an intoxicated person says "Yes", they have offered consent. If they wish they hadn't said yes the next day(or if they think that they wouldn't have said yes if they were sober), that is not the same as rape. If an intoxicated person does not give consent, then it isn't any different that a person who is not intoxicated, that is rape.

[old_gregg]

funk are you drunk? because i don't think you would have consented to this sober

[falafel]

My only context for this is what byu 71 said. His comment had none of the other context you provided. So with that information, I agree with you.

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Why would you take such a strong stance on something about which you were not fully informed? Perhaps the Dude is right and you are just too emotionally invested in this debate to address it rationally.

[cougjunkie]

funk are you drunk? because i don't think you would have consented to this sober

I think it more has to do with how hard it is for Funk to receive any sort of consent in his own life, so he just assumes that nobody else has it either.

[Katy Lied]

I like that Funk is passionate about this issue and I think there is room for him here in our plurality of opinions. I think Funk's stance on this is perfectly in line with his other advocacy work for women and children- it might be opportunistic for him to get to condemn the BYU at the same time, but he's been consistent on these issues for years, whether it involves BYU or not.