Just wanted to give '71 another reason to complain about the Honor Code

[Jeff Lebowski]

I'm still interested in you actually taking a position, offer a solution, etc. Easy to sit back and not take a stance.

Funny how you keep repeating this when it isn't true. I have said repeatedly that I would love to see all HC issues handled by bishops through the ecclesiastical endorsement process. But since that is highly unlikely, I think there are a number of compromise measures that need to be thoroughly analyzed and vetted. I am happy that they are doing a review of the situation. I don't think your simplistic, emotional analysis of the situation is either fair or accurate.

[byu71]

Funny how you keep repeating this when it isn't true. I have said repeatedly that I would love to see all HC issues handled by bishops through the ecclesiastical endorsement process. But since that is highly unlikely, I think there are a number of compromise measures that need to be thoroughly analyzed and vetted. I am happy that they are doing a review of the situation. I don't think your simplistic, emotional analysis of the situation is either fair or accurate.

I get so excited when I can completely agree with you.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I get so excited when I can completely agree with you.

'71 is my homie.

[falafel]

Kasich deserved the criticism for promoting rape culture. He should have been emphasizing that a drunk person cannot consent, not focusing on what the victim needed to do to prevent the rape.

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How is that a solution? At least he was offering a way to help reduce sexual assault. Your response is simply to get angry when it happens.

[MartyFunkhouser]

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[MartyFunkhouser]

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[byu71]

I've never had a problem with you. If you want to start something, I will go there.

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LOL, I don't have a problem with people who make dumb ass statements. I have made some myself.

Not sure what, "I will go there means"? Are you offering to buy lunch or asking me to or what?

[Jeff Lebowski]

So you also think the author of the article is simplistic and emotional? He comes to the same conclusion as me.

I also disagree that my approach is simple or emotional. It isnt. You are just wrong with that claim.

I've given that my reason for this approach is to encourage reporting. Ive acknowledged there are disadvantages. I've weighed those disadvantages and I think the advantages outweigh them.

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I was being extremely generous with that statement.

[Clark Addison]

I've already said this is bigger than a byu problem, it is a societal problem. Byu doing better in some ways doesn't forgive the problems they have created by investigating victims.

I'm still interested in you actually taking a position, offer a solution, etc. Easy to sit back and not take a stance.

As for alcohol consumption, we need to do a better job teaching consent and address it through modification of rape laws to include that an intoxicated person cannot consent.

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I don't have enough knowledge on this to really speak to whether it is a good idea or not. It may be, although I admit that I think it raises a whole host of issues. I guess the first ones would be these:

1. How do you define intoxicated? Same as driving? 0.08%? How do you determine the intoxication level of someone at the time they had sex?
2. If the answer to #1 is around the DUI level, then a huge number of people are having sex in this condition. Do you think all of these are rape?
3. In a very large number of these cases, both participants will be intoxicated. Who gets charged with rape in that case?

Don't mean these questions to sound combative, if they do. Just seems like a very difficult legal standard with a potential slippery slope.

[byu71]

So you also think the author of the article is simplistic and emotional? He comes to the same conclusion as me.

I also disagree that my approach is simple or emotional. It isnt. You are just wrong with that claim.

I've given that my reason for this approach is to encourage reporting. Ive acknowledged there are disadvantages. I've weighed those disadvantages and I think the advantages outweigh them.

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His idea of doing away with the Greek system was symplistic for sure. I see his thought process similar to Trumps when it comes to say, Trumps immigration solution.

I will bet he grew up in the era of the church when people were told to "avoid places where evil can happen and nothing bad will happen to you".

[Commando]

I'll go ahead and echo JL's sentiment that Kevin Worthen being at the forefront of this is a best-case scenario for everyone involved. Razor sharp legal mind, warm, and very diplomatic.

[falafel]

I don't have enough knowledge on this to really speak to whether it is a good idea or not. It may be, although I admit that I think it raises a whole host of issues. I guess the first ones would be these:

1. How do you define intoxicated? Same as driving? 0.08%? How do you determine the intoxication level of someone at the time they had sex?
2. If the answer to #1 is around the DUI level, then a huge number of people are having sex in this condition. Do you think all of these are rape?
3. In a very large number of these cases, both participants will be intoxicated. Who gets charged with rape in that case?

Don't mean these questions to sound combative, if they do. Just seems like a very difficult legal standard with a potential slippery slope.

Quit poking holes in funk's posts and offer a SOLUTION!

[old_gregg]

I've never had a problem with you. If you want to start something, I will go there.

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he must be shaking in his boots

[Solon]

Funny how you keep repeating this when it isn't true. I have said repeatedly that I would love to see all HC issues handled by bishops through the ecclesiastical endorsement process. But since that is highly unlikely, I think there are a number of compromise measures that need to be thoroughly analyzed and vetted. I am happy that they are doing a review of the situation. I don't think your simplistic, emotional analysis of the situation is either fair or accurate.

I've thought about this a bit.
Fundamentally, having a bishop (for the sake of convenience, I am going to focus on LDS students at the byu; I recognize that there are a few non-LDS byuers) in charge of "Honor Code" issues via the Ecclesiastical Endorsement is a great idea; in practice, though, it would cause some tension between the official standards of "worthiness" for LDS members generally (i.e., the basic temple recommend questions) and the byu's standards of "worthiness" which are a bit more rigorous (short-shorts; beards; opposite-sex roommates).

It would institutionalize what is already in place - two different standards of "worthiness" = one for the LDS community at large, and one for byu students
(BTW, this is the root of the "holier-than-thou" claims that plague the byu - the rules for the byu are more stringent than the rules for temple-worthiness).

The Honor Code is never going away, but I suspect that enforcement of it (whether secular or clerical) is about to get a major overhaul.

[MartyFunkhouser]

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