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Just wanted to give '71 another reason to complain about the Honor Code

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  • #76
    Despite the national press attention, I doubt BYU will significantly alter the honor code's involvement in assault cases. If it does continue to be involved, giving amnesty is obviously a problem (though I think this is probably the best option). But how about something like 'conditional amnesty'? Say there is no referral to the honor code initially. But what if during the course of the Title IX or police investigations, if deception on the part of the accuser comes to light, then the honor code investigation kicks in?

    Look, I hated the honor code twenty years ago, and I still think it is an embarrassment. But since it isn't going anywhere, maybe this would be an acceptable compromise.
    "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
    "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
    - SeattleUte

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Northwestcoug View Post
      Despite the national press attention, I doubt BYU will significantly alter the honor code's involvement in assault cases. If it does continue to be involved, giving amnesty is obviously a problem (though I think this is probably the best option). But how about something like 'conditional amnesty'? Say there is no referral to the honor code initially. But what if during the course of the Title IX or police investigations, if deception on the part of the accuser comes to light, then the honor code investigation kicks in?

      Look, I hated the honor code twenty years ago, and I still think it is an embarrassment. But since it isn't going anywhere, maybe this would be an acceptable compromise.
      The simple solution is to wait until the rape case is completed. However the honor code office sees HC violations as very time sensitive, heaven forbid they let someone get in a free semester or two when they could have possibly broken a rule.
      *Banned*

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      • #78
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        Last edited by MartyFunkhouser; 09-13-2016, 09:28 AM.
        As I lead this army, make room for mistakes and depression
        --Kendrick Lamar

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        • #79
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          Last edited by MartyFunkhouser; 09-13-2016, 09:28 AM.
          As I lead this army, make room for mistakes and depression
          --Kendrick Lamar

          Comment

          • #80
            Originally posted by mpfunk View Post
            I think someone needs to learn something about consent. If a woman is high on LSD, she didn't just consent to sex. She was drugged and raped. If she had consensual sex with him prior to the drugging and raping, that doesn't equal consent.

            Thanks for illustrating a point that there is a lot of education that needs to be given about what constitutes consent.
            I think someone needs to learn something about research. Read the article. The woman said she had previously used LSD and had consensual sex with him, she said nothing of being high on LSD during the rape. Oh and she her self called it "consensual sex". Nice try though. I am so glad you are such an advocate for women. Your advocacy however is counter-productive, you act like without you they would have no voice, they need a man to make sure they are heard. Bravo Funk!!
            *Banned*

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            • #81
              The longer the clinging to the Honor Code goes on the more the institution is going to be marginalized and targeted. I honestly fear a day when a BYU diploma is not so different than a Bob Jones diploma in the eyes of prospective employers and admissions officers.

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              • #82
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                Last edited by MartyFunkhouser; 09-13-2016, 09:29 AM.
                As I lead this army, make room for mistakes and depression
                --Kendrick Lamar

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                • #83
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                  Last edited by MartyFunkhouser; 09-13-2016, 09:29 AM.
                  As I lead this army, make room for mistakes and depression
                  --Kendrick Lamar

                  Comment

                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                    Just claim you were raped and everything is forgiven. What could possibly go wrong?
                    "Brooke" in the NY Times article claims she was raped several months prior to the LSD usage and then was raped again. To be perfectly honest with you, I can buy it that perhaps she was raped after she took the LSD, but I discount the claim of rape from several months before. She's raped by the guy, but still apparently doesn't mind hanging out with him and taking LSD. It's not exactly a compelling case to lead off the article. While Funk is correct that taking the LSD doesn't mean she consented to sex and may have made her incapable of consenting, there's also the issue that the accused also likely took LSD and neither party has any clue as to what happened. Does she know if she consented? Does he have any idea?

                    How do you convict someone under such circumstances? Not surprisingly, I didn't see any mention that "Brooke" went to the police. Also, the details are scant regarding the timing of the LSD usage, the sex/rape in question and when she told the school.

                    Contrast that with the story from Madeleine McDonald, also featured in the story. She made the exceptionally unwise decision to go out with someone from Tinder. That, by itself, is not an honor code violation. But it was a one time date with the guy and she reported things immediately to the school. Nothing happened to her as far as the honor code, but it sounds like the University could have handled that one better.
                    Part of it is based on academic grounds. Among major conferences, the Pac-10 is the best academically, largely because of Stanford, Cal and UCLA. “Colorado is on a par with Oregon,” he said. “Utah isn’t even in the picture.”

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by cougjunkie View Post
                      The simple solution is to wait until the rape case is completed. However the honor code office sees HC violations as very time sensitive, heaven forbid they let someone get in a free semester or two when they could have possibly broken a rule.
                      The easiest/best/simplest solutions are unfortunately never evoked. Let the criminal matter resolve itself before venturing forth. Pharisees gotta pharisee, I guess.
                      "The first thing I learned upon becoming a head coach after fifteen years as an assistant was the enormous difference between making a suggestion and making a decision."

                      "They talk about the economy this year. Hey, my hairline is in recession, my waistline is in inflation. Altogether, I'm in a depression."

                      "I like to bike. I could beat Lance Armstrong, only because he couldn't pass me if he was behind me."

                      -Rick Majerus

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                      • #86
                        One thing for sure about this issue is that the hyperbole has been off the charts. I guess it is a perfect storm for the hypersensitive social justice warrior movement that is all the rage.

                        BYU is not going to completely drop the Honor Code. They will make some adjustments and some people won't be satisfied but life will go on and some other issue will take its place. This is a complex issue that deserves a measured, careful analysis. I am happy that Kevin Worthen is at the helm now as I think he has just the right temperament to deal with this in a productive way.
                        "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                        "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                        "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Color Me Badd Fan View Post
                          "Brooke" in the NY Times article claims she was raped several months prior to the LSD usage and then was raped again. To be perfectly honest with you, I can buy it that perhaps she was raped after she took the LSD, but I discount the claim of rape from several months before. She's raped by the guy, but still apparently doesn't mind hanging out with him and taking LSD. It's not exactly a compelling case to lead off the article. While Funk is correct that taking the LSD doesn't mean she consented to sex and may have made her incapable of consenting, there's also the issue that the accused also likely took LSD and neither party has any clue as to what happened. Does she know if she consented? Does he have any idea?
                          Unless, following the rape, he basically threatened to report her to the HC office unless she accompanied him.

                          http://www.sltrib.com/news/3817597-1...-abusers-wield

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                          • #88
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                            Last edited by MartyFunkhouser; 09-13-2016, 09:29 AM.
                            As I lead this army, make room for mistakes and depression
                            --Kendrick Lamar

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                            • #89
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                              Last edited by MartyFunkhouser; 09-13-2016, 09:29 AM.
                              As I lead this army, make room for mistakes and depression
                              --Kendrick Lamar

                              Comment

                              • #90
                                Originally posted by mpfunk View Post
                                This issue really isn't that complex. If you insist on keeping the honor code, there are 2 approaches that you can take:

                                1) Amnesty

                                2) No Amnesty
                                The conditional amnesty that NWC refers to is a balanced approach that I could support.

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