Polygamy justification?

[Jeff Lebowski]

The points here are well intended but poorly applied by the majority of church leadership. I had a meeting with Spencer J. Condie(1st Quorum of the seventy) in 2001 to discuss some of the issues that were bothering me and he even pulled out the "when the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done" arguement(which I understand is not the position of the church).

Come up with a different conclusion or question and you are labeled as : an intellectual(as a bad thing), not in harmony with the spirit, a rabble rouser, prideful, lacking in spirituality, nitpicker, under the influence of Satan and his minions. Others could likely add to this list.

Ouch. Sorry to hear that he handled it that way. That's unfortunate.

[RobinFinderson]

If you want to have input, you better be doing all that they ask of you, otherwise you will be shouting with all the others who feel they should have input, without putting in.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. It sort of sounds like you are describing what a person has to do in order to exercise legitimate influence over what direction the church takes. It sort of sounds like you are saying that a person has to fall in line with the church's expectations of its members before their views and opinions should be considered. Sorry if I am misreading what you intended to say.

This thread has brought to me the question that begs to be asked. Why do you as an individual believe what you believe about religion, our place in the grand scheme, etc? Why do you believe in the religion that you believe in? What brought you to the place in your life that you are at today?

Open question to all.

It is a great question, and probably deserves its own thread.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Ouch. Sorry to hear that he handled it that way. That's unfortunate.

Yeah, my adventure through this has been a "Series of Unfortunate Events"

[RobinFinderson]

I believe that properly applied Christianity is a good influence on me and my family.

I think the LDS Church can be a great vehicle within which to practice the principles of Christianity. Can I imagine some ways in which it could be a better vehicle and ways I wish the Church were different? Sure.

It seems unlikely to me that the Church and the Book of Mormon are literally exactly what they claim to be, but that doesn't mean that they aren't a good influence (for me personally, not speaking for everyone here).

I categorically reject the view that either the Church is exactly what it claims to be or that it is completely useless.

As far as what brought me my views, it was my family. I grew up reading Sunstone, Dialogue, Fawn Brodie, all kinds of honest historical viewpoints. I have prominent LDS leaders as well as prominent "anti-Mormons" and apostates among my relatives and friends. People who are extremely orthodox LDS as well as people who claim the Church is harmful or completely worthless are both wrong, in my opinion. I'm in between.

Thanks Cardiac. You are an obvious omission from my short list of 'smart' CUF Mormons. I sincerely hope you find yourself in a position to really influence church policy.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I believe that properly applied Christianity is a good influence on me and my family.

I think the LDS Church can be a great vehicle within which to practice the principles of Christianity. Can I imagine some ways in which it could be a better vehicle and ways I wish the Church were different? Sure.

It seems unlikely to me that the Church and the Book of Mormon are literally exactly what they claim to be, but that doesn't mean that they aren't a good influence (for me personally, not speaking for everyone here).

I categorically reject the view that either the Church is exactly what it claims to be or that it is completely useless.

As far as what brought me my views, it was my family. I grew up reading Sunstone, Dialogue, Fawn Brodie, all kinds of honest historical viewpoints. I have prominent LDS leaders as well as prominent "anti-Mormons" and apostates among my relatives and friends. People who are extremely orthodox LDS as well as people who claim the Church is harmful or completely worthless are both wrong, in my opinion. I'm in between.

I stand pretty similar to your views on this expecially the part about the church being exactly what it claims to be or completely useless.

This statement to me describes pretty much every religion in the Judeo-Christian realm.

[scottie]

2. God cared enough get an angel to threaten joseph's life, but then didn't care enough to follow up to make sure Joseph was implementing it correctly

What's the source on the threat from the angel? I've heard it a few times and am wondering if it's in the D&C.

[UtahDan]

Yeah, my adventure through this has been a "Series of Unfortunate Events"

So, see? You really did leave the church because someone offended you. It's time you forgave them and returned home Jarid.

[SeattleUte]

Here is the best example I can think of:



Lets hope we aren't around to see this come true.

We have heard these, including the apocalyptic banalities in the second paragraph, on the Sunday morning Evangelical shows, in the political conventions, even to some extent in the news magazins and other commentary in the media. You can find them uttered all over the Internet including from some right wing crazies. The importance of the family unit to society and the challenges it edxperience is also common semse. Why do you think this is an example of prophesy or modern revelation? This is just an example of Mormonism's socially conservative outlook, for better or worse, which is what the movement is all about, at bottom.

I would also like to see something from them even approacing the eloquence and artistry of Moses, Isiiah, Jeremiah, and Jesus Christ.

Any other examples of modern revelation or prophesy from LDS leaders after Joseph Smith?

Again, I have concrete examples where they blew it in resisting a societal trend, took positions positively immoral and backward on issues affecting the welfare of tens of millions of people. They seem to have totally missed the major developments of the twentieth centurty good or evel, and only resisted the good.

Lebowski, "our prophets are people too" is weak weak sauce, and you know better. I have as good as proved a negative here. It really is a house of cards.nothing but cards.

[The Wankster]

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. It sort of sounds like you are describing what a person has to do in order to exercise legitimate influence over what direction the church takes. It sort of sounds like you are saying that a person has to fall in line with the church's expectations of its members before their views and opinions should be considered. Sorry if I am misreading what you intended to say.



It is a great question, and probably deserves its own thread.

There are allot of people who assume they are pretty smart when it comes to the doings of the LDS church, always making suggestions to make things different, or better, but if you were to take a deeper look into it you would find they are usually not all that *involved* in making things better, just talking about it.

[Jeff Lebowski]

We have heard these, including the apocalyptic banalities in the second paragraph, on the Sunday morning Evangelical shows, in the political conventions, even to some extent in the news magazins and other commentary in the media. You can find them uttered all over the Internet including from some right wing crazies. The importance of the family unit to society and the challenges it edxperience is also common semse. Why do you think this is an example of prophesy or modern revelation? This is just an example of Mormonism's socially conservative outlook, for better or worse, which is what the movement is all about, at bottom.

I would also like to see something from them even approacing the eloquence and artistry of Moses, Isiiah, Jeremiah, and Jesus Christ.

Any other examples of modern revelation or prophesy from LDS leaders after Joseph Smith?

Again, I have concrete examples where they blew it in resisting a societal trend, took positions positively immoral and backward on issues affecting the welfare of tens of millions of people. They seem to have totally missed the major developments of the twentieth centurty good or evel, and only resisted the good.

Lebowski, "our prophets are people too" is weak weak sauce, and you know better. I have as good as proved a negative here. It really is a house of cards.nothing but cards.

See what I mean? I totally could have written this post.

[CardiacCoug]

This statement to me describes pretty much every religion in the Judeo-Christian realm.

True.

So for me it has come down to simply a question of whether or not participating in any church is a good thing or not. I think most people can find a place within the LDS Church if they think about things the right way. The way I see it, any formal religion would require me to have faith in things that seem irrational and unlikely.

Unfortunately, the Church makes it difficult for some people who would like to retain a connection to the Church to retain this connection. Indy likes to mock this, but this is a true story: My grandmother frequently violated the Word of Wisdom (consuming whatever beverages she wished to consume while traveling) and she also harangued President Kimball about blacks and the Priesthood every time they saw each other in the 60s and 70s (they were closely related). As far as I know, nobody ever considered kicking her out of the Church, and that is the type of Church to which I would like to belong.

Some orthodox LDS like to compare the Church to a train that is moving rapidly onward and say that members will either get on board or be left behind. I've always wondered how this analogy compares to Christ's admonition to go and find the lost sheep. To me, the Church should be one that can be inclusive of as many of God's children as possible.

[Jarid in Cedar]

What's the source on the threat from the angel? I've heard it a few times and am wondering if it's in the D&C.

IIRC, It was stated to several of Joseph's polygamous wives in the explanation of why they were apporaching them to invite them to polygamy. Read Compton's book. The reference is there with several of the wives.

[Jarid in Cedar]

So, see? You really did leave the church because someone offended you. It's time you forgave them and returned home Jarid.

Touche and LOL at the same time. No they were more like road blocks. At the time I was frustrated and offended to some degree, which lead to some of my initial antagonistic ways. After time, I realized that they may have been protecting their own insecurities and were trying to find ways to not talk about it. Freud called that ego defense reflection or deflection(can't remember his exact word).

[Jarid in Cedar]

True.

So for me it has come down to simply a question of whether or not participating in any church is a good thing or not. I think most people can find a place within the LDS Church if they think about things the right way. The way I see it, any formal religion would require me to have faith in things that seem irrational and unlikely.

Unfortunately, the Church makes it difficult for some people who would like to retain a connection to the Church to retain this connection. Indy likes to mock this, but this is a true story: My grandmother frequently violated the Word of Wisdom (consuming whatever beverages she wished to consume while traveling) and she also harangued President Kimball about blacks and the Priesthood every time they saw each other in the 60s and 70s (they were closely related). As far as I know, nobody ever considered kicking her out of the Church, and that is the type of Church to which I would like to belong.

Some orthodox LDS like to compare the Church to a train that is moving rapidly onward and say that members will either get on board or be left behind. I've always wondered how this analogy compares to Christ's admonition to go and find the lost sheep. To me, the Church should be one that can be inclusive of as many of God's children as possible.

The orthodox of every religion is driving force of much of the ichor that stains religious discussion(similar to politics). The orthodoxy are very much the Pharieses.

[RobinFinderson]

There are allot of people who assume they are pretty smart when it comes to the doings of the LDS church, always making suggestions to make things different, or better, but if you were to take a deeper look into it you would find they are usually not all that *involved* in making things better, just talking about it.

But isn't 'talking' all that rank and file members can do when it comes to church policy?

Anyhow, I personally believe in the power of 'talking.' Talking spreads ideas, and ideas have a way of catching things on fire. The Mormon revolution is going to be a 'talking revolution.' Look to Iran. There is great power in simply showing up in the streets to express an idea.