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  • Polygamy justification?

    Have you ever heard LDS folk claim that polygamy was necessary/justified for (A) caring for the higher number of women in the Church than men, and (B) increasing the LDS population? We had a couple of MTC teachers give us that reasoning and I ate it up and even used it in the mission field a couple of times. This is some pretty interesting info from Apostle John A. Widtsoe's 1943 book "Evidences and Reconciliations":

    (See question #66, near the bottom of the page -- a CTRL+F search for "why did the church" will take you right to it)

    http://www.cumorah.com/language/evid...iliations.html
    66. WHY DID THE CHURCH PRACTICE PLURAL MARRIAGE IN EARLIER DAYS?

    ...

    Plural marriage has been a subject of wide and frequent comment. Members of the Church unfamiliar with its history, and many non-members, have set up fallacious reasons for the origin of this system of marriage among the Latter-day Saints.

    The most common of these conjectures is that the Church, through plural marriage, sought to provide husbands for its large surplus of female members. The implied assumption in this theory, that there have been more female than male members in the Church, is not supported by existing evidence. On the contrary, there seem always to have been more males than females in the Church. Families—father, mother, and children—have most commonly joined the Church. Of course, many single women have become converts, but also many single men.

    The United States census records from 1850 to 1940, and all available Church records, uniformly show a preponderance of males in Utah, and in the Church. Indeed, the excess in Utah has usually been larger than for the whole United States, as would be expected in a pioneer state. The births within the Church obey the usual population law—a slight excess of males. Orson Pratt, writing in 1853 from direct knowledge of Utah conditions, when the excess of females was supposedly the highest, declares against the opinion that females outnumbered the males in Utah. (The Seer, p. 110) The theory that plural marriage was a consequence of a surplus of female Church members fails from lack of evidence.

    ...

    Another conjecture is that the people were few in number and that the Church, desiring greater numbers, permitted the practice so that a phenomenal increase in population could be attained. This is not defensible, since there was no surplus of women.
    Some background on the book:
    Throughout his professional life as scientist, educator, public servant, and churchman—a distinguished and almost unbelievably varied career going back nearly half a century—Dr. John A. Widtsoe has been receiving questions from confused and alert and honest and eager students—students of life, students of the gospel, and students engaged in formal academic pursuits. These questions have come by letter, in Church gatherings, from the mission field, in the classroom, and on informal occasions.

    Some years ago Dr. Widtsoe began to make permanent record of such questions as they came to him and, beginning nearly five years ago, to answer in print in the pages of the Improvement Era those most persistently and most frequently asked. "Evidences and Reconciliations" was the general title adopted, with a subtitle "Aids to Faith in a Modern Day"; and that the series filled an urgent need is attested by the fact that requests for permanent compilation began to increase as the writings progressed through the months—thus repeating the experience of other writers who, by reason of demand, have been obliged to publish their serial efforts in book form.

  • #2
    Yes, I used that one and until just now believed it. Now I am just left with the SU assertion that they were just a bunch of horny men.

    Please don't tell me now that Brigham Young didn't marry most of his wives in order to provide them financial security.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by byu71 View Post
      Yes, I used that one and until just now believed it. Now I am just left with the SU assertion that they were just a bunch of horny men.

      Please don't tell me now that Brigham Young didn't marry most of his wives in order to provide them financial security.
      Seems to happen throughout history every time certain males are lifted to demi-god status in an insular orthodox religious community.
      When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

      --Jonathan Swift

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      • #4
        only a man called of God, just and holy, would want more than one wife. It is utter suicide.

        That is my justification.
        "Don't expect I'll see you 'till after the race"

        "So where does the power come from to see the race to its end...from within"

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
          Seems to happen throughout history every time certain males are lifted to demi-god status in an insular orthodox religious community.

          I wonder if it isn't a male thing and the fact males aren't really a monogomous creature by nature. He is only monogomous by discipline and constraint.

          In the religious context, perhaps that is one way to satisfy the wandering without contradicting the "discipline" religion is supposed to promote.

          In order to justify the wandering some use religion, others may use some other form of power they have.

          However, it is plausible that a practice that is forbidden for most, could be allowed for the few.

          Comment


          • #6
            I used to do a lot of reading on the subject, and as I recall, the reinstitution of polygyny was not unusual as a theme in many of the upstart religions of the period. So the early Mormons were not entirely unique in their approach, and I think (but am not sure) that there are surviving groups that do not have roots in Mormondom that practice at least free love as a result.

            To my knowledge (which, again, is limited on the matter), however, polyandry is not as common and does make us a bit unique in that early period. I don't think it was practiced in the post JS era, and I'm not at all certain how sexual any of the relationships were, but we did have sealings all over the place to JS by already married women, as I recall. Somebody with a stronger background in church history can probably clarify this better. I'm left mildly curious if it was simply a different understanding of eternal salvation (certainly at least some of the sealings to JS were naught more than a formality, a desire to be linked to The Prophet) or if it was something else.

            Either way, I don't need justification one way or the other. We do not believe in the doctrine of infallibility, and I am completely okay with writing that off as a "whoops" thing in the same way I approach the blacks-and-the-priesthood issue.
            Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by nikuman View Post
              Either way, I don't need justification one way or the other. We do not believe in the doctrine of infallibility, and I am completely okay with writing that off as a "whoops" thing in the same way I approach the blacks-and-the-priesthood issue.
              I have pondered your doctrine of "whoops" and have found it to be true.
              Fitter. Happier. More Productive.

              sigpic

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              • #8
                Originally posted by TripletDaddy View Post
                I have pondered your doctrine of "whoops" and have found it to be true.
                did your "pondering" involve action?
                "Don't expect I'll see you 'till after the race"

                "So where does the power come from to see the race to its end...from within"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Wives, Yikes!!

                  My great-great Grandfather was a polygamist. He did NOT enjoy it. He married one woman who had 4 children after her husband passed away. This was not an old guy looking for a thrill.

                  If you think about polygamy as an economist would, you find that monogamy is the ONLY way some of us would have the wives we have. Let's face it, there are way more quality woman than men. Via monogamy, we losers get a shot at women who wouldn't give a us second look. Monogamy limits a woman's choice - giving us a chance. Limiting choice is NOT a good thing, for women.

                  Look around your ward this week and look at the dweebs married to quality women. Look at the great women who are unmarried.

                  My grandfather's story ends with him living in the chicken coop and leaving his homes to his four wives. The thought of polygamy makes me shrivel like a spider on a hot stove.
                  You're never too old for Space Camp, dude.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Toadie View Post
                    My great-great Grandfather was a polygamist. He did NOT enjoy it. He married one woman who had 4 children after her husband passed away. This was not an old guy looking for a thrill.

                    If you think about polygamy as an economist would, you find that monogamy is the ONLY way some of us would have the wives we have. Let's face it, there are way more quality woman than men. Via monogamy, we losers get a shot at women who wouldn't give a us second look. Monogamy limits a woman's choice - giving us a chance. Limiting choice is NOT a good thing, for women.

                    Look around your ward this week and look at the dweebs married to quality women. Look at the great women who are unmarried.

                    My grandfather's story ends with him living in the chicken coop and leaving his homes to his four wives. The thought of polygamy makes me shrivel like a spider on a hot stove.

                    Look, I like women. For instance they really add to this board. I could go on and on about as a gender the positive attributes.

                    However, what I find interesting is the apparent need to constantly pander to them. It happens in conference all the time and you are not the lone ranger in doing this, but your comment about way more quality women I would like to hear justified by how you define quality.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Toadie View Post
                      The thought of polygamy makes me shrivel like a spider on a hot stove.
                      Do they really shrivel? I can't wait to get home.
                      sigpic
                      "Outlined against a blue, gray
                      October sky the Four Horsemen rode again"
                      Grantland Rice, 1924

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by cowboy View Post
                        Do they really shrivel? I can't wait to get home.
                        They absolutely do. At least the kind we tortured when I was a kid.
                        Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Toadie View Post
                          My great-great Grandfather was a polygamist. He did NOT enjoy it. He married one woman who had 4 children after her husband passed away. This was not an old guy looking for a thrill.

                          If you think about polygamy as an economist would, you find that monogamy is the ONLY way some of us would have the wives we have. Let's face it, there are way more quality woman than men. Via monogamy, we losers get a shot at women who wouldn't give a us second look. Monogamy limits a woman's choice - giving us a chance. Limiting choice is NOT a good thing, for women.

                          Look around your ward this week and look at the dweebs married to quality women. Look at the great women who are unmarried.

                          My grandfather's story ends with him living in the chicken coop and leaving his homes to his four wives. The thought of polygamy makes me shrivel like a spider on a hot stove.
                          I get what you're saying, but something about the logic troubles me....it almost sounds like something I would expect from a current polygamist to justify their actions. "I'm just giving the women expanded choice so they don't have to marry losers." Can you see my point?
                          "Wuap's "problem" is that he is smart & principled & committed to a moral course of action. His actions are supposed to reflect his ethical code.
                          The rest of us rarely bother to think about our actions." --Solon

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by byu71 View Post
                            Look, I like women. For instance they really add to this board. I could go on and on about as a gender the positive attributes.

                            However, what I find interesting is the apparent need to constantly pander to them. It happens in conference all the time and you are not the lone ranger in doing this, but your comment about way more quality women I would like to hear justified by how you define quality.
                            Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

                            Can we stop the patronizing, "let's put women on a pedastal" nonsense?

                            I hope women get the priesthood just so that all the pandering and patronizing and BS will stop.
                            We all trust our own unorthodoxies.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I had an investigator who was well-read on the church, ask: if, suppose during the millennium polygamy is reinstated, and on average each polygamist has 7 wives, doesn't it follow that 6 out of every 7 men on the earth would be single, suffering from the pains that Paul described, under the umbrella of your very God who says "it is not good for man to be alone?"

                              Wasn't too sure what to say to him other than default to the idea that there would be 7x as many women as men on the earth.

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