It's OK to resign.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Either Jesus Christ was a liar, lunatic or Lord. Either Joseph Smith was a liar, lunatic or a prophet of God.

I have no idea why people insist on these black and white narratives. What if Jesus said most of the things about loving your neighbor, kingdom of God, etc,. but never said any of the things about being the Son of God, and those were added later by the christian community as christian theology gradually evolved over time? What if Jesus claimed he was a messiah (which was a fairly common claim at the time), but stopped short of some of the more extreme claims of divinity? What if the stories of the miracles were all added by believers? What if Jesus was a healer so at least some of the stories are true, but some aren't? There is a vast range of possibilities that lie between liar/lunatic and Lord, many of which might differ to varying degrees from the accepted traditional narrative, but would involve Jesus as an embodiment of divinity.

In fact, one could argue that framing these issues in purely black and white terms is a "horribly foolish and myopic thing to do" (borrowing your words).

[Eddie]

It might have helped that I took my bishop out to lunch about a year ago.

This is sounding more and more complex by the minute.

In order to resign you have to take the bishop to lunch, and then email him?

If you change your mind and want to re-sign, do you have to take him to lunch again?

[Shaka]

It's ok not to resign.

[Bo Diddley]

It's ok not to resign.

The space inside the circle is just as valid as the space outside the circle.

Edit: Unless that circle is the basketball hoop, in which case those of us in the circle just scored, and Byron lost.

[Commando]

The space inside the circle is just as valid as the space outside the circle.

Exactly. In my Father's house are many mansions. All equally valid, some just more eternally kickass than the rest.

[SeattleUte]

I just want you to all know that it's easy to resign your membership in the LDS Church.

All you have to do is email your bishop. If your bishop is responsible, you'll recieve your letter confirming your resignation within a few days.

Good people like SeattleUte should just go ahead and take care of this so their name is no longer in any way associated with the Church's discriminatory policies. It's also a much deserved vote of no confidence for the current leadership.

Actually, I've never resigned because my de jure record status means nothing to me either way.

[Green Monstah]

Your mileage may vary, however. Byron Marchant was excommunicated back in the late '70's and I am pretty sure he didn't get re-baptized. Therefore, I suspect processing Byron's resignation email would be a no-brainer for a bishop.

I'm pretty sure I met the other dissident mentioned in that article while serving my mission. He came to church dressed in all white and tried to get me to read some revelations he received.

[Crockett]

I have no idea why people insist on these black and white narratives. What if Jesus said most of the things about loving your neighbor, kingdom of God, etc,. but never said any of the things about being the Son of God, and those were added later by the christian community as christian theology gradually evolved over time? What if Jesus claimed he was a messiah (which was a fairly common claim at the time), but stopped short of some of the more extreme claims of divinity? What if the stories of the miracles were all added by believers? What if Jesus was a healer so at least some of the stories are true, but some aren't? There is a vast range of possibilities that lie between liar/lunatic and Lord, many of which might differ to varying degrees from the accepted traditional narrative, but would involve Jesus as an embodiment of divinity.

In fact, one could argue that framing these issues in purely black and white terms is a "horribly foolish and myopic thing to do" (borrowing your words).

As you probably know, that phrase comes from C.S. Lewis, not an intellectual lightweight.

So okay, yes with Jesus Christ there is the theoretical possibility that multiple followers made it all up and coordinated their stories to a high degree. For Christ we rely on the testimonies of others. So let me phrase it another way. Either Jesus Christ was the Only Begotten Son of God that was Jehovah from the OT and performed an eternal Atonement or he was not. And not includes the whole range of nice guy and teacher, followers that embellished / lied about what he said and did, followers that wanted to tell some nice stories, crazy guy, liar, whatever nuanced view you could come up with. That's how I see it black and white. Joseph Smith is even more black and white as we have his words directly from him. Either he is who he said he was ("Noah came before the flood; I have come before the fire.") or not. Same with the Book of Mormon -- either it is a divine translation from an ancient record or it is a modern creation (and there are a variety of options if it's the latter).

So, there is indeed black and white here and that's the point. There is more gray in other areas, but not these.

[Solon]

Either Jesus Christ was a liar, lunatic or Lord. Either Joseph Smith was a liar, lunatic or a prophet of God. If they were who they said they were (and I am absolutely convinced they were), then leaving the Church (the only place that has God-given authority to perform saving and eternal ordinances and where the true Gospel is taught more so than anywhere else) is a horribly foolish and myopic thing to do. People can intellectualize themselves into knots over various topics, but this fundamental decision is pretty black and white. If people think the Church is man-made, then yeah no reason to stick around (I wouldn't). The Church and its leaders are not perfect, but if you think it is true, but leave because of what's trending in society then that is just sad.

Maybe this applies to you, maybe it doesn't, but this growing protest culture where people keep trying to signal how virtuous they are and to boost their self-esteem by latching on to faddish causes is vacuous. Many have let go of the iron rod, become blinded by the mists of darkness and become ashamed when the people in the big building (society, pop culture) point fingers and mock.

This scripture I read the other night seems relevant here, too. The context is covetousness, but it teaches an important, general principle:

Luke 16:15
15 And [Jesus] said unto them, Ye [the Pharisees] are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

And just so we are clear, I do wish you all the best.

WTF? Where's the Trigger-Warning?
Sheesh.

[Crockett]

Actually, I've never resigned because my de jure record status means nothing to me either way.

C'mon, be honest. You know you are hedging your bet by staying on the records.

[Jeff Lebowski]

As you probably know, that phrase comes from C.S. Lewis, not an intellectual lightweight.

So okay, yes with Jesus Christ there is the theoretical possibility that multiple followers made it all up and coordinated their stories to a high degree. For Christ we rely on the testimonies of others. So let me phrase it another way. Either Jesus Christ was the Only Begotten Son of God that was Jehovah from the OT and performed an eternal Atonement or he was not. And not includes the whole range of nice guy and teacher, followers that embellished / lied about what he said and did, followers that wanted to tell some nice stories, crazy guy, liar, whatever nuanced view you could come up with. That's how I see it black and white. Joseph Smith is even more black and white as we have his words directly from him. Either he is who he said he was ("Noah came before the flood; I have come before the fire.") or not. Same with the Book of Mormon -- either it is a divine translation from an ancient record or it is a modern creation (and there are a variety of options if it's the latter).

So, there is indeed black and white here and that's the point. There is more gray in other areas, but not these.

Interesting that you would mention Noah and the flood. So if the flood story is not literal, should we toss out the entire bible? You know, black and white and all that.

[SeattleUte]

As you probably know, that phrase comes from C.S. Lewis, not an intellectual lightweight.

Some people think he is. I wish religious people knew what a buzz kill C.S. Lewis is to unbelievers and even progressive Christians.

But I agree with you that it's very simple and black and white. Reasonable people unburdened by history and ties to religious community don't agree that Joseph Smith is who he said he was or that Jesus was what his literary character is.

[SeattleUte]

C'mon, be honest. You know you are hedging your bet by staying on the records.

I'm not hedging. We have some people in positions of access and leadership here. I invite them (I invite you!) to file charges of apostasy against me. Unlike Kate Kelly I admit it--I'm an apostate! I've written this repeatedly and I'm proud of it. How can they excommunicate her and not me? It's not fair.

[Goatnapper'96]

I'm not hedging. We have some people in positions of access and leadership here. I invite them (I invite you!) to file charges of apostasy against me. Unlike Kate Kelly I admit it--I'm an apostate! I've written this repeatedly and I'm proud of it. How can they excommunicate her and not me? It's not fair.

John Dehlin, Kate Kelly out and you stay. Lesson to learn is people with small boobs are OWE-YOU-TEE...OUT!

[Crockett]

Interesting that you would mention Noah and the flood. So if the flood story is not literal, should we toss out the entire bible? You know, black and white and all that.

Dude, I just said

So, there is indeed black and white here and that's the point. There is more gray in other areas, but not these.

I see Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, The Book of Mormon, and the Church as a divinely organized and authorized structure as black and white. Again, other areas are more gray -- but they are all secondary. You are ignoring my main point by responding only to the Noah comment.

My testimony does not hinge on whether some of the stories in the Bible are literal or figurative. Some are possibly figurative, and it wouldn't bother me if they are, but I personally believe that many / most are literal.

What do you think of The Book of Mormon? Ancient record or modern creation?