The CES Letter

[MartyFunkhouser]

By the way, funk, why are you so defensive about this topic? You have been telling us repeatedly that you are not "ex-mo". A few examples:

http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...on#post1102125

http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...on#post1254086

Technically, I'm not an ex-mo. I am still on the rolls on the church and will likely remain for the entirety of my life. I also recognize that there is some good in the organization and recognize that the organization provided me with some assistance when it was needed. It isn't all bad. It isn't all good either. For me though, especially recently the bad outweighs the good.

I don't think I'm defensive about this topic at all. I'm just pointing out that people like Dehlin, Kelly, Runnells, etc. aren't representative of most people who leave the church, just like the Well Behaved Mormon Woman, A Purposeful Wife, and the Tapir Whisperer aren't representative of most people inside the church.

[Jeff Lebowski]

there has never been a more perfect time:

That website still makes me laugh. What a horrible idea.

[MartyFunkhouser]

That website still makes me laugh. What a horrible idea.

It was a horrible and poorly executed way to address what is an actual problem.

[Moliere]

The CES Letter

In some cases, absolutely.

EDIT: I think this directly impacts certain flavors of LDS apologetics. Dan Peterson, Bill Hamblin, etc. They seem more concerned about winning arguments than anything.

Definitely agree here as well. The straining that we do to associate anything to divine intervention is ludicrous.

For instance, during the flooding last week many people called the fact that the temple never got flooded (despite it being right in the flooded area) as a miracle. I'm sure I'll here many testimonies about it on Sunday. What is funny is that no other businesses (Kroger, Bike Barn, etc.) in that area got flooded because they all were engineered to be a certain height above the flood plain. Granted some businesses a little ways away got flooded, but they were all buildings built more than 2 decades ago.

We see what we want to see so we can reaffirm what we already believe.

[cougjunkie]

I don't think I'm defensive about this topic at all. I'm just pointing out that people like Dehlin, Kelly, Runnells, etc. aren't representative of most people who leave the church, just like the Well Behaved Mormon Woman, A Purposeful Wife, and the Tapir Whisperer aren't representative of most people inside the church.

Based on the sample size I have seen, Dehlin, Runnells and Kelly are very similar to the majority of people who leave the church.

[bluegoose]

Dude, come on. Crest all the way.

Look, I'm not gonna fight with you on this one. There's too much contention on this board as it is. I've already consulted my engineer friends and they tend to agree with you. But I'm just going by what my DENTIST told me. And he went to dental school in the Big 10, not some mid major dental school.

[myboynoah]

Technically, I'm not an ex-mo. I am still on the rolls on the church and will likely remain for the entirety of my life. I also recognize that there is some good in the organization and recognize that the organization provided me with some assistance when it was needed. It isn't all bad. It isn't all good either. For me though, especially recently the bad outweighs the good.

I don't think I'm defensive about this topic at all. I'm just pointing out that people like Dehlin, Kelly, Runnells, etc. aren't representative of most people who leave the church, just like the Well Behaved Mormon Woman, A Purposeful Wife, and the Tapir Whisperer aren't representative of most people inside the church.

lol, those sounded like counter-Mormon outlets to me.

[MartyFunkhouser]

Based on the sample size I have seen, Dehlin, Runnells and Kelly are very similar to the majority of people who leave the church.

Which is a very small sample size and one that you are viewing through extreme bias.

EDIT: I acknowledge that I also have my own biases as well. Which is why I'm trying hard not to impute the awful Mormon movement people to all Mormons.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Definitely agree here as well. The straining that we do to associate anything to divine intervention is ludicrous.

For instance, during the flooding last week many people called the fact that the temple never got flooded (despite it being right in the flooded area) as a miracle. I'm sure I'll here many testimonies about it on Sunday. What is funny is that no other businesses (Kroger, Bike Barn, etc.) in that area got flooded because they all were engineered to be a certain height above the flood plain. Granted some businesses a little ways away got flooded, but they were all buildings built more than 2 decades ago.

We see what we want to see so we can reaffirm what we already believe.

Good examples. We all love to confirm our biases.

(and God bless civil engineers!)

[MartyFunkhouser]

lol, those sounded like counter-Mormon outlets to me.

They may sound like it, but they are all faithful and active members of the church. 2 of which are damn near endorsed by the church in Kathryn Skaggs and Dan Peterson.

[Jeff Lebowski]

They may sound like it, but they are all faithful and active members of the church. 2 of which are damn near endorsed by the church in Kathryn Skaggs and Dan Peterson.

So much so that he was booted from his position at the Maxwell Institute. And his toady Bill Hamblin ended up retiring early after years of feeling marginalized and disrespected at BYU.

[MartyFunkhouser]

So much so that he was booted from his position at the Maxwell Institute. And his toady Bill Hamblin ended up retiring early after years of feeling marginalized and disrespected at BYU.

He teaches at BYU. He writes for the DesNews. I'll go ahead and disagree with you that there isn't some level of church endorsement there for him. I guess we can agree that Kathryn Skaggs has the support of the church leadership.

[Jeff Lebowski]

He teaches at BYU. He writes for the DesNews. I'll go ahead and disagree with you that there isn't some level of church endorsement there for him. I guess we can agree that Kathryn Skaggs has the support of the church leadership.

No, I will agree that you are once again ignoring basic facts and making up crap to fit your biases.

[byu71]

Definitely agree here as well. The straining that we do to associate anything to divine intervention is ludicrous.

For instance, during the flooding last week many people called the fact that the temple never got flooded (despite it being right in the flooded area) as a miracle. I'm sure I'll here many testimonies about it on Sunday. What is funny is that no other businesses (Kroger, Bike Barn, etc.) in that area got flooded because they all were engineered to be a certain height above the flood plain. Granted some businesses a little ways away got flooded, but they were all buildings built more than 2 decades ago.

We see what we want to see so we can reaffirm what we already believe.

Reminds me of a HP meeting years and years ago. A tornado went through Oklahoma City, pretty sure that was the town and tore up a lot of the city. It was reported in the Deseret News that the tornado was headed straight for the temple (or maybe a Stake Center, can't remember detials if over 10 years ago) and went out and around it and then kept heading the way it was.

Someone brought up the miracle in class. The former Stake President stood up and said," that would be a great story if true, but the story isn't true".

[MartyFunkhouser]

No, I will agree that you are once again ignoring basic facts and making up crap to fit your biases.

What basic facts am I ignoring or making up?

I don't ignore that Peterson was removed from the Maxwell Institute 3 years ago. I'm not making up that Peterson is a weekly columnist for the DesNews. I'm not making up that he is a BYU professor.

As for Kathryn Skaggs what am I making up or ignoring about her?