Atonement and Omnipotence

[creekster]

If we believe that an atonement is absolutely necessary, does that not mean that God is less than omnipotent? If God can only bestow blessings on those who have successfully taken advantage of the atonement then his power must be limited by an external force. Or, if God has chosen to restrict blessings in this manner, the atonement isn't essential and God exalts some of his principles above some of his childrens' happiness. Right?

[Moliere]

I'm not sure we believe God is omnipotent, omniscient not omnipresent. We say he is, but some of our teachings contradict that...which you've obviously pointed out. But God is clearly not omnipotent, and can't be for the gospel as defined my Mormon Doctrine to work.

[Solon]

I'm not sure we believe God is omnipotent, omniscient not omnipresent. We say he is, but some of our teachings contradict that...which you've obviously pointed out. But God is clearly not omnipotent, and can't be for the gospel as defined my Mormon Doctrine to work.

Lately, I have been thinking about the idea of Jesus as omnipotent & omniscient. If this were the case, how great of a sacrifice could it have been to suffer in Gethsemane & die on the cross? I mean, it wouldn't have been pleasant, but knowing that resurrection was coming after the weekend would have made it much less psychologically daunting. How difficult is it to sacrifice one's life if one knows that it's just for a minute? It almost feels like a ruse or a cheap trick.

A Jesus who didn't know he would resurrect, or (perhaps) a Jesus who never did resurrect provides a much nobler sacrifice, IMO. This kind of sacrifice is more in line with the precepts of Christianity.

I mean this with all appropriate respect. Obviously, the mystical mystery of Jesus's expiation defies easy explanation.

[clackamascoug]

Can or can't do - might take a back seat to Laws. In order for everything to run "like clock work" there has to be a Standard Model from which the elements of life can function and flourish. The Atonement is like the boson-higgs particle which balances the discrepancies of our works.

Omniscience and Omnipresence are all accounted for in the infinite number of dimensions where learning everything is as easy as living long enough and playing out the consequences of every choice made through eternity in another Universe where God existed before he lit the fuse on this parcel of matter. If this Universe can have a center and expansion, who's to say there's not another in the fabric of what made this one possible.

Dedicated to all my fans!

[creekster]

Lately, I have been thinking about the idea of Jesus as omnipotent & omniscient. If this were the case, how great of a sacrifice could it have been to suffer in Gethsemane & die on the cross? I mean, it wouldn't have been pleasant, but knowing that resurrection was coming after the weekend would have made it much less psychologically daunting. How difficult is it to sacrifice one's life if one knows that it's just for a minute? It almost feels like a ruse or a cheap trick.

A Jesus who didn't know he would resurrect, or (perhaps) a Jesus who never did resurrect provides a much nobler sacrifice, IMO. This kind of sacrifice is more in line with the precepts of Christianity.

I mean this with all appropriate respect. Obviously, the mystical mystery of Jesus's expiation defies easy explanation.

But Jesus isnt God when incarnate. He is god and mortal. His omniscience is limited by his mortal weakness, which he had to overcome (Father, let this cup pass from my lips, nevertheless, they will be done).

[Jeff Lebowski]

The doctrine of blood atonement was not full developed by Christian theologians until about 900 AD. Maybe the reason your noodle gets baked when you think too deeply about the mechanics involved, is that it never happened in a literal sense in the first place. Perhaps it is simply a metaphor for God’s unconditional love for us and for our desire to be reconciled with God. Maybe the reason it resonates so deeply with so many people is because we have an innate sense of unworthiness and the idea of an atonement allows us to feel forgiven by God and accepted by God. In other words, by obsessing over mechanics we might be missing the point. It is a simple, beautiful, and powerful concept that can change lives, whether it completely makes sense or not.

[creekster]

The doctrine of blood atonement was not full developed by Christian theologians until about 900 AD. Maybe the reason your noodle gets baked when you think too deeply about the mechanics involved, is that it never happened in a literal sense in the first place. Perhaps it is simply a metaphor for God’s unconditional love for us and for our desire to be reconciled with God. Maybe the reason it resonates so deeply with so many people is because we have an innate sense of unworthiness and the idea of an atonement allows us to feel forgiven by God and accepted by God. In other words, by obsessing over mechanics we might be missing the point. It is a simple, beautiful, and powerful concept that can change lives, whether it completely makes sense or not.

Maybe. But my noodle isn't baked. I am just preparing a lesson for tomorrow and was curious what people here thought about that. I am not hung up on the blood part anyway. Forgetting that specific issue and the added verses in luke, you are left with a form of the atonement showing up in the 2 and 3d century AD. So it was out there. I am more interested in the nature of God. But your point is a good one.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Maybe. But my noodle isn't baked. I am just preparing a lesson for tomorrow and was curious what people here thought about that. I am not hung up on the blood part anyway. Forgetting that specific issue and the added verses in luke, you are left with a form of the atonement showing up in the 2 and 3d century AD. So it was out there. I am more interested in the nature of God. But your point is a good one.

It bakes my noodle!

[creekster]

It bakes my noodle!

I'm too simple for that.

I think the mechanics are incomprehensible. I think they must be incomprehensible, by their nature. But we are taught that the atonement is necessary. That it is the fulcrum upon which all of existence, all of creation and the end of all the souls created by God turn. Why is that so? Regardless of the mechanics, if it is truly necessary then God is not omnipotent (and moreover seems to be a bit of a gambler) OR he chooses to set up a system that cause many of his children to be eternally damned (precluded from progression). Which of these is more likely? I think it turns out the God of mormonism is rather limited in his power.

I also appreciate clack's comments. I have no idea what he is talking about, but I appreciate the effort.

[jay santos]

I don't like the idea of God being beholden to a set of rules or higher authority. Here is how it can make sense to me. God has his own rule he himself made. He could bend the rules if he wanted to. The thing that did move him enough to convince him to bend his rules was the sacrifice of his son.

[cowboy]

I think about this a lot, and after a 6-hour gig and 3 hours of sleep I might not be able to communicate it clearly, but here goes. First, the scriptures are clear that God must be just, or he would cease to be God. In other words, a perfect being would not be unjust, and would not perfect an unworthy soul. What makes us worthy is our faith and desire to be better, which would be reflected in the lives we live. Second, all this is important because God promises us a great deal of power with exaltation, and will only grant that power to souls who have demonstrated they can be trusted to put aside their own selfish desires and be trusted with such power. This brings us to the atonement. Everyone will make mistakes that damage us spiritually, hence Lebowski's comment that everyone feels unworthy. Through the atonement, God gave license to the Savior to heal us (dying wasn't the big deal, btw, it was the suffering leading up to death that the Savior wasn't looking forward to). However, he had to trust that the Savior would heal everyone to the extent they deserved, and thus the justice. This ensures that every soul is dealt with fairly, and it allows those who are trustworthy to be given the power and dominion God has promised. Hope that makes sense, because I don't have time to proof it.

[Northwestcoug]

The doctrine of blood atonement was not full developed by Christian theologians until about 900 AD. Maybe the reason your noodle gets baked when you think too deeply about the mechanics involved, is that it never happened in a literal sense in the first place. Perhaps it is simply a metaphor for God’s unconditional love for us and for our desire to be reconciled with God. Maybe the reason it resonates so deeply with so many people is because we have an innate sense of unworthiness and the idea of an atonement allows us to feel forgiven by God and accepted by God. In other words, by obsessing over mechanics we might be missing the point. It is a simple, beautiful, and powerful concept that can change lives, whether it completely makes sense or not.

Consider my noodle baked. Are you saying that the literal shedding of Christ's blood wasn't required in God's plan? And that something as vast and infinite as a God laying down his life wasn't required to save everyone from their sins (and in some circles save people in other worlds)? I could have sworn that the BOM and POGP had a few things to say about that.

[Solon]

But Jesus isnt God when incarnate. He is god and mortal. His omniscience is limited by his mortal weakness, which he had to overcome (Father, let this cup pass from my lips, nevertheless, they will be done).

The nature of Christ has hardly been a settled matter, although LDS teachings tend to simplify things. Traditionally speaking, Christ is God and therefore was incapable of sin. He didn't overcome sin (the way you or I might try to), but it was never a possibility. The Catholic Encyclopedia states that seventeen different theological explanations have been offered by reputable theologians (such as Aquinas) trying to reconcile Christ's liberty (e.g., to die) with the impossibility of Christ committing sin.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07706b.htm#III1b

On a related note, I recommend Phil Jenkins's Jesus Wars.

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Wars-Pat.../dp/0061768936

[Mormon Red Death]

I think about this a lot, and after a 6-hour gig and 3 hours of sleep I might not be able to communicate it clearly, but here goes. First, the scriptures are clear that God must be just, or he would cease to be God. In other words, a perfect being would not be unjust, and would not perfect an unworthy soul. What makes us worthy is our faith and desire to be better, which would be reflected in the lives we live. Second, all this is important because God promises us a great deal of power with exaltation, and will only grant that power to souls who have demonstrated they can be trusted to put aside their own selfish desires and be trusted with such power. This brings us to the atonement. Everyone will make mistakes that damage us spiritually, hence Lebowski's comment that everyone feels unworthy. Through the atonement, God gave license to the Savior to heal us (dying wasn't the big deal, btw, it was the suffering leading up to death that the Savior wasn't looking forward to). However, he had to trust that the Savior would heal everyone to the extent they deserved, and thus the justice. This ensures that every soul is dealt with fairly, and it allows those who are trustworthy to be given the power and dominion God has promised. Hope that makes sense, because I don't have time to proof it.

Let me flush this out a little. I think the problem with the suffering is that it has a finite time of happening. For example, Let's say you are getting tortured and its the most excruciating pain possible but one minute afterward there are no lingering effects. Yes the pain hurt but its over. In a way isn't Christ's sacrifice kind of like that? He has a day of terrible unimaginable pain but the time of the pain is finite. He doesnt continue to live with pain of the sins of the world. Every time one of us sins he doesn't feel that pain. Let me put another theory. Maybe the sacrifice is that the begotten son of God is humbled and not adored like he should be as the king of the earth. Maybe his sacrifice is that he became human to show the way. in First nephi chapter 11 Nephi is having his vision and the spirit asks or tells him twice about the condescension of God.

16 And he said unto me: Knowest thou the condescension of God?

17 And I said unto him: I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things.

18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

26 And the angel said unto me again: Look and behold the condescension of God!

27 And I looked and beheld the Redeemer of the world, of whom my father had spoken; and I also beheld the prophet who should prepare the way before him. And the Lamb of God went forth and was baptized of him; and after he was baptized, I beheld the heavens open, and the Holy Ghost come down out of heaven and abide upon him in the form of a dove.

Maybe the key to the atonement is humility. Maybe the meek really will inherit the earth.

[Moliere]

The doctrine of blood atonement was not full developed by Christian theologians until about 900 AD. Maybe the reason your noodle gets baked when you think too deeply about the mechanics involved, is that it never happened in a literal sense in the first place. Perhaps it is simply a metaphor for God’s unconditional love for us and for our desire to be reconciled with God. Maybe the reason it resonates so deeply with so many people is because we have an innate sense of unworthiness and the idea of an atonement allows us to feel forgiven by God and accepted by God. In other words, by obsessing over mechanics we might be missing the point. It is a simple, beautiful, and powerful concept that can change lives, whether it completely makes sense or not.

Wait, so the atonement never happened in the way Mormons think it happened...meaning drops of blood, agony in Gethsemane, etc.?